Should Religious Extremism be Considered a Mental Disorder?
Vanni_Fucci @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:10 am
I posted this poll on another forum that I used to frequent, and got some very mixed (read zealous) responses, but nothing close to a conclusion.
http://www.betterhumans.com/Features/Co ... 02-12-15-2
Unfortunately, I have never studied psychology and so I would like some feedback from some forum members that may have. I tend to agree with most of what this article suggests...a have a little problem with his theory where he makes the assumption that belief in Jesus' performance of miracles and his resurrection (ie. Christian ideals) may not be unhealthy. I then made the assumption that the author would have us believe that Christians are moderate, while Jews and Muslims, in holding on to the Old Testament and Quranic dogma are fundamentalists. I think that his point would have been better made had he not tried to make that distinction...
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines "mental disorder" as:
mental disorder
n : (psychiatry) a psychological disorder of thought or emotion;
a more neutral term than mental illness [syn: mental
disturbance, disturbance, psychological disorder, folie]
I find this definition to be rather ubiquitous and not very useful to this discussion, but I thought I'd include it anyway...
Also I found it quite amazing that there aren't very many psychologists that are willing to take the plunge and categorize religious extremism or fundamentalism as a true mental disorder. I would have thought that with the amount of anachronistic fodder provided to us at the hands of the extremists and fundamentalists, that there would have been an abundance of papers written on the subject, but in researching this phenomenon, I have not found that to be the case. I guess it's still a rather touchy subject...
http://www.marlenewinell.com/psycharticle.htm
...kind of like AA for Churchy Folk...
http://samvak.tripod.com/mentalillness. ... ydisorders
...and now for a word on religious fundamentalism and insanity...
$1:
Consider the following case:
A mother bashes the skulls of her three sons. Two of them die. She claims to have acted on instructions she had received from God. She is found not guilty by reason of insanity. The jury determined that she "did not know right from wrong during the killings."
But why exactly was she judged insane?
Her belief in the existence of God - a being with inordinate and inhuman attributes - may be irrational.
But it does not constitute insanity in the strictest sense because it conforms to social and cultural creeds and codes of conduct in her milieu. Billions of people faithfully subscribe to the same ideas, adhere to the same transcendental rules, observe the same mystical rituals, and claim to go through the same experiences. This shared psychosis is so widespread that it can no longer be deemed pathological, statistically speaking.
She claimed that God has spoken to her.
As do numerous other people. Behavior that is considered psychotic (paranoid-schizophrenic) in other contexts is lauded and admired in religious circles. Hearing voices and seeing visions - auditory and visual delusions - are considered rank manifestations of righteousness and sanctity.
Perhaps it was the content of her hallucinations that proved her insane?
She claimed that God had instructed her to kill her boys. Surely, God would not ordain such evil?
Alas, the Old and New Testaments both contain examples of God's appetite for human sacrifice. Abraham was ordered by God to sacrifice Isaac, his beloved son (though this savage command was rescinded at the last moment). Jesus, the son of God himself, was crucified to atone for the sins of humanity.
A divine injunction to slay one's offspring would sit well with the Holy Scriptures and the Apocrypha as well as with millennia-old Judeo-Christian traditions of martyrdom and sacrifice.
Her actions were wrong and incommensurate with both human and divine (or natural) laws.
Yes, but they were perfectly in accord with a literal interpretation of certain divinely-inspired texts, millennial scriptures, apocalyptic thought systems, and fundamentalist religious ideologies (such as the ones espousing the imminence of "rupture"). Unless one declares these doctrines and writings insane, her actions are not.
we are forced to the conclusion that the murderous mother is perfectly sane. Her frame of reference is different to ours. Hence, her definitions of right and wrong are idiosyncratic. To her, killing her babies was the right thing to do and in conformity with valued teachings and her own epiphany. Her grasp of reality - the immediate and later consequences of her actions - was never impaired.
It would seem that sanity and insanity are relative terms, dependent on frames of cultural and social reference, and statistically defined. There isn't - and, in principle, can never emerge - an "objective", medical, scientific test to determine mental health or disease unequivocally.
So from what scant research material I have available to me at this time, I have concluded that religious extremism or fundamentalism is a mental disorder very much like an addiction to heroine and just as destructive to one's psyche and physical self, and to the culture and environment of the "patient"...also, it seems one must enter re-hab to dry out and clean up one's thought processes to realign them with the cultural "norm", which is a subjective yardstick that has been imposed on all individuals by the social order to which they belong.
However, fundamentalism itself is a subjective term that varies according to culture...so this argument may be cyclical in nature, and I may be doomed to never have a proper answer...
mcpuck @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:16 am
essentially the definition of fundamental (serving as a basis supporting existence or determining essential structure or function) is contrary to the current connotation in the context of and associated with religion. To me a religious fundamentalist would be follow the scriptures as they are presented but evidently this isn't the case.
Vanni_Fucci @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:13 am
mcpuck mcpuck:
To me a religious fundamentalist would be follow the scriptures as they are presented but evidently this isn't the case.
No, that is absolutely the case, and that is my point.
When the scriptures are followed, whether they be from the Holy Bible, the Torah or the Quran, they explicitly instruct the followers of those religions to be intolerant of other religions, and in fact, in some passages, to kill the unbelievers.
Theologians will get around this argument by saying that this is not what the scriptures mean...but fundamentalists, as you yourself have defined them, do not concern themselves with what the scriptures mean, they focus on what the scriptures say...and if Yaweh/God/Allah command them to kill all unbelievers, then that is exactly what it means...there is no question of context...
$1:
Deuteronomy 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
...any meaning mistaken there?
...or here?
$1:
4. Women.
4.88] What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.
4.88] What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.
This is a long drawn out way of saying that an unbeliever is such because Allah has not deemed him worthy of being a believer, and so can be killed summarily...
...and so it goes, the world will never know peace with this kind of hatred and intolerance being practiced all over the planet...
mcpuck @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:06 am
Islamic Fundies are bonkers ...
Vanni_Fucci @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:25 am
mcpuck mcpuck:
Islamic Fundies are bonkers ...
Whereas, I don't disagree with you there, I do assert that ALL "fundies" are bonkers...and we should treat them with love and compassion and ensure that they are heavily medicated all the rest of their days...
![[drool]](./images/smilies/droolies.GIF "Drool")
I like this site:
http://edwardtbabinski.us/fundamentalis ... links.html
Make sure you check this one out:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/
..some funny shit there...
Rev_Blair @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:18 am
I've met quite a few fundamentalist Christians and they are, without a doubt, less than stable.
I've only met one family of fundamentalist Muslims and they too acted irrationally.
I've known a few fundamentalist Jews and they weren't quite all there either.
I know people who are non-fundamentalist adherents to all three of those religions and, while I find some of their beliefs a little odd, they are pretty normal.
There is a certain irrationality required to follow fundamentalist beliefs. All of the holy books are contradictory at best, so following them to the letter is bound to require a certain disconnect. There is also the fact that many fundamentalist beliefs do not match what we know about science and technology, yet we are surrounded by science and tehnology every day so their religious beliefs are at odds with what they see with their own eyes.
figfarmer @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:53 am
YES, lock the nutters away.
Rik25158854 @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:02 am
NO!! Religious Extremism/Fundamentalism should not be Considered a Mental Disorder. Religious Extremism/Fundamentalism is a choice not an illness. but it is a disease that needs eradicated from todays society.
Rev_Blair @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:07 am
Actually the last one who came to my door was a hell of a nice guy. I turned down his Watch Tower, but he had a lot of questions about the history of the neighbourhood, having just moved here. I invited him in for a coffee and turned him over to my wife. She's been researching that a bit.
He never mentioned religion after I turned down the Watch Tower.
Rik25158854 @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:14 am
I suppose I shouldnt tar them all with the same stick. we dont get offered the watch tower much over here.its all paramillitary over here.they dont hand out little books. they hand out beatings to little kids ... this is why i have so little time for them.
Rev_Blair @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:20 am
You have a whole different set of problems over there, Rik. I don't think we can really fathom it from here. It wouldn't hurt to get your perspective on it though.
Rik25158854 @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:36 am
Its a very different barrel of fish indeed. it is a lot less violent now compared to when i was younger , but its not something that we consiously think about its just the way we live. Everything over here is organised through various paramillitarys even the goverment. whats it like where you live?
Rev_Blair @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:50 pm
It's pretty free here...no paramilitaries, not real history of home-grown terrorists (there was the FLQ back in the 1970s and somebody tried to blow up a hydro tower in Quebec a few days ago, but nobody had ever heard of them). There is a troubling growth of religious bigotry centred on Muslims, and Jews have always been targeted to some extent, but we don;t have the Catholic/Protestant split like you do there.
human @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:04 pm
Vanni_Fucci,
Which religion Kills Apostates?
Today after a car bomb exploded and killed 13 Iraqis, this statement was made in the name of Islam to legitimize the killing: "On this blessed day a lion from the (group's) Martyrs' Brigade has gone out to strike at a gathering of apostates and Americans in the Green Zone," the group said in a statement posted on an Islamic Web site.
Now, I can understand that Christianity and in particular Catholicism used such method back in its hatred history, and The Church of the 16th century was as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis, but then that was millenniums ago, and the inquisitionist of the POPOS realized finally that their Christ never said that, and therefore they stopped.
Jews on the other hand never cared about who leave Judaism, and the history tells me that many of them did leave and became what ever they chose to become, while I can’t remember one story of a Jew that was killed because he left Judaism; however Jewish Orthodox were historically concerned by not allowing non-Jewish to become Jewish, and I have no doubts that the religion taboo here used for a good reason since other religions were not only still killing their apostates, but also inflicting miseries against the religion that accepted them. [come to mind the kidnapping and the killing sometime of the Christian missionary for preaching to Moslem in Islamic countries.
What is really dangerous today is coming not from Christianity or Judaism today, but rather from Islam alone.
Here how the Koran discredit the people who leaves Islam from honour before killing them…
004.139
YUSUFALI: Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah.
PICKTHAL: Those who chose disbelievers for their friends instead of believers! Do they look for power at their hands? Lo! all power appertaineth to Allah.
SHAKIR: Those who take the unbelievers for guardians rather than believers. Do they seek honor from them? Then surely all honor is for Allah.
Here what the Koran says about the True Moslems and their friendship with the Jews and the Christians…
005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God.
The verse "This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion" and this reverberates in the ears of every Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How can anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
Apostasy in Islam is punishable by death. This sentence is practiced wherever Muslims are in power and can practice it. In Iran many Baha’is where executed because they changed religion. The Fatwas against Salman Rushdie, Taslima Nasrin and Anwar Sheikh are examples of that. …
Vanni_Fucci @ Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:08 pm
No, we don't have so much religious adversity in Canada, but we do have the Anglophone/Francophone split...and then there's the Albertans...but then hardline political beliefs is the religion of the secularists...and that is just as culturally unhealthy as the raving lunatic bible thumpers, in my opinion...