Most overated leader in history.
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Mustang1 @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:52 am
CubanTexan CubanTexan:
He's still overated, despite 'what' defines the man, I would venture to conject the incident embellished a persona that, well, was all about style and little subsatnce.
Okay, I’ll play – perhaps you could demonstrate how the Cuban Missile Crisis “embellished” his persona and represented “style and little substance”? I’d argue that his conduct during this race to potential nuclear Armageddon was the epitome of effective, competent leadership. In fact, perhaps this one incident (like Churchill and WWII) represents, or illustrates, the notion that JFK was an effective strategist, consensus builder and successful President.
CubanTexan @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:12 am
Mustang1 Mustang1:
CubanTexan CubanTexan:
He's still overated, despite 'what' defines the man, I would venture to conject the incident embellished a persona that, well, was all about style and little subsatnce.
Okay, I’ll play – perhaps you could demonstrate how the Cuban Missile Crisis “embellished” his persona and represented “style and little substance”? I’d argue that his conduct during this race to potential nuclear Armageddon was the epitome of effective, competent leadership. In fact, perhaps this one incident (like Churchill and WWII) represents, or illustrates, the notion that JFK was an effective strategist, consensus builder and successful President.
Please, you're taking my comments out of context. I like the way you diverted the topic from 'most overrated leader' to JFK's handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis. While he was effective in keeping missiles out of Cuba, he failed in eliminating the thuggish communism that has killed my native country. Cubans trusted him when he promised air support during the 'bay of pigs' invasion, air support that never arrived. "Kennedy lied and Cubans died." Sound familiar?
Mustang1 @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:18 am
CubanTexan CubanTexan:
Please, you're taking my comments out of context. I like the way you diverted the topic from 'most overrated leader' to JFK's handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis. While he was effective in keeping missiles out of Cuba, he failed in eliminating the thuggish communism that has killed my native country. Cubans trusted him when he promised air support during the 'bay of pigs' invasion, air support that never arrived. "Kennedy lied and Cubans died." Sound familiar?
Firstly, I didn’t divert anything – you claimed JFK was overrated and I countered with an objective piece of history (Cuban Missile Crisis) that illustrated your supposition’s limitations. I like the way you accuse me of somehow rerouting the issue, when you’ve failed to back up your original point. You have yet to substantiate that point; so don’t blame me for asking a perfectly relevant question.
Secondly, while the direct U.S. military involvement on the day of operation (JFK’s decision to withhold significant air support) did help in the insurgent’s failed revolution, you’ve failed to address the utter lack of local Cuban support (didn’t Bissell assure Kennedy this was inevitable?). Wasn’t this part of the Eisenhower administration and CIA’s original plan? Didn’t the success of the operation hinge on local support? Where was it? How is this solely JFK’s responsibility?
CubanTexan @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:55 am
Mustang1 Mustang1:
CubanTexan CubanTexan:
Please, you're taking my comments out of context. I like the way you diverted the topic from 'most overrated leader' to JFK's handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis. While he was effective in keeping missiles out of Cuba, he failed in eliminating the thuggish communism that has killed my native country. Cubans trusted him when he promised air support during the 'bay of pigs' invasion, air support that never arrived. "Kennedy lied and Cubans died." Sound familiar?
Firstly, I didn’t divert anything – you claimed JFK was overrated and I countered with an objective piece of history (Cuban Missile Crisis) that illustrated your supposition’s limitations. I like the way you accuse me of somehow rerouting the issue, when you’ve failed to back up your original point. You have yet to substantiate that point; so don’t blame me for asking a perfectly relevant question.
Once again, one incident (despite the magnitude) should not define the man.
Secondly, while the direct U.S. military involvement on the day of operation (JFK’s decision to withhold significant air support) did help in the insurgent’s failed revolution, you’ve failed to address the utter lack of local Cuban support (didn’t Bissell assure Kennedy this was inevitable?). Wasn’t this part of the Eisenhower administration and CIA’s original plan? Didn’t the success of the operation hinge on local support? Where was it? How is this solely JFK’s responsibility?
Once again, one incident (despite the magnitude) should not define the man. The utter lack of Cuban support was due to Fidel holding a virtual gun to everyone's head in Cuba. The local support was effectively neutered by Castro's secret police. Do you understand the realities of living under a total dictatorship?My mother recalls the fear that saturated Cuba after the failed 'bay of pigs' invasion. No one was going to lift a finger unless it was apparent that the invasion would be successful. When all those men were cut down on the beach waiting for air support that never arrived, many Cubans lost heart. Once again, do you understand the realities of living under a total dictatorship? I would venture not.
CubanTexan @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:56 am
JFK may be your hero in the world of 'real politik', but in the world of flesh and blood, he is a failure.
CubanTexan @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:03 am
you claimed JFK was overrated and I countered with an objective piece of history (Cuban Missile Crisis) that illustrated your supposition’s limitations. I like the way you accuse me of somehow rerouting the issue, when you’ve failed to back up your original point. You have yet to substantiate that point; so don’t blame me for asking a perfectly relevant question. [B]
Does not my failed 'bay of pigs' invasion serve the same purpose as your objective 'piece of history? History and men do not exist in a vacuum.
You may judge JFK on the 'cuban missile crisis', I judge him on his lies to the cuban freedom fighters he abandoned on a lonely beach. This point is moot.
Good job on the 'cuban missile crisis' JFK. Too bad the rest of your life was a sham and a failure. And don't give me crap about the civil rights movement being led by JFK. MLK was the man and the spirit behind the movement.
BTW, besides the Cuban missile crisis, what else did he do? (aside from Marilyn) [color=#] [/color]
CubanTexan @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:15 am
Hey mustang,sorry for the curt replies. I'm trying to design a 'winch tractor' while carrying this conversation on with you. I have to go back to work. (sigh)
I guess the evaluation of a leader, and how people view that leader, is very relative. And I have found that pure objectivety, as in your case, discounts the human element.
Mustang1 @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:38 am
CubanTexan CubanTexan:
Once again, one incident (despite the magnitude) should not define the man. The utter lack of Cuban support was due to Fidel holding a virtual gun to everyone's head in Cuba. The local support was effectively neutered by Castro's secret police. Do you understand the realities of living under a total dictatorship?My mother recalls the fear that saturated Cuba after the failed 'bay of pigs' invasion. No one was going to lift a finger unless it was apparent that the invasion would be successful. When all those men were cut down on the beach waiting for air support that never arrived, many Cubans lost heart. Once again, do you understand the realities of living under a total dictatorship? I would venture not.
Well…again, history has demonstrated on numerous occasions that one act or situation (like Churchill in WWII or William at Hastings) can define an individual’s entire legacy. You’ve yet to outline anything substantial to illustrate your notion that JFK was the most overrated leader in history.
$1:
“utter lack of Cuban support was due to Fidel holding a virtual gun to everyone's head in Cuba. The local support was effectively neutered by Castro's secret police. Do you understand the realities of living under a total dictatorship?My mother recalls the fear that saturated Cuba after the failed 'bay of pigs' invasion. No one was going to lift a finger unless it was apparent that the invasion would be successful.”
But wasn’t this part of the original plan? Wasn’t this support needed to augment the roughly 1600 CIA-trained guerrillas? Didn’t Bissell assure Kennedy that significant domestic support would rise up after the initial invasion? How exactly is this solely Kennedy’s fault? You claimed that the Bay of Pigs incident somehow cemented Kennedy’s stature as an overrated leader, and I’ve shown that he isn’t the only one that deserves blame for the disastrous invasion. Unless you can demonstrate this, your point is moot.
$1:
“Once again, do you understand the realities of living under a total dictatorship?”
Argumentative fallacy aside, what does that have to do with you demonstrating your assertion that JFK was the most overrated leader in history?
$1:
“JFK may be your hero in the world of 'real politik', but in the world of flesh and blood, he is a failure.”
Actually, I specifically used the term “anti-real politik” (big difference). Study the particulars of the Cuban Missile Crisis and you’ll know why.
$1:
“Does not my failed 'bay of pigs' invasion serve the same purpose as your objective 'piece of history?”
Nope. You’ve haven’t demonstrated that the whole thing was an example of poor leadership. You have yet to show how JFK’s actions (and the invasion in general) were products of one individual’s poor leadership abilities.
$1:
“Too bad the rest of your life was a sham and a failure.”
Opinion or fact? I’ll go with the former.
$1:
“And don't give me crap about the civil rights movement being led by JFK. MLK was the man and the spirit behind the movement.”
I didn’t present any “crap”, but thanks for assigning a position to me and then subsequently arguing its merits (a little disingenuous, don’t you think?). Since you did introduce it, I think you may have to give credit to Kennedy’s initial beginnings into Civil Rights legislation and instead of only championing MLK, you’ll also need to acknowledge Johnson’s Great Society as a major factor in continuing some of JFK’s New Frontier initiatives (like the Civil Rights Act of 1964 – which LBJ enacted, in part, as a memorial to JFK).
The Hoser @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:50 am
Operation Northwoods. Anyone who is called a leader after authorizing this travesty is overrated.
CubanTexan @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:58 am
The truth of the matter, I judge JFK, solely (to my detriment) on his relation to the cuban people.(since I didn't arrive in the US until 69', just a little 4 year tike, I view him in a vacuum) I guess I could denigrate MLK as a womanizer and adulterer, but I choose to think different. JFK cuts into my soul...and I believe judging an individual on a single incident, the cuban missile crisis, is
myopic.
Mustang1 @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:59 am
The Dark Canuck The Dark Canuck:
Operation Northwoods. Anyone who is called a leader after authorizing this travesty is overrated.
Are you sure Kennedy’s authorized it (wasn’t Lemnitzer responsible?)? Most current historical studies conclude that McNamara and possible Kennedy himself, rejected it.
Mustang1 @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:07 am
CubanTexan CubanTexan:
The truth of the matter, I judge JFK, solely (to my detriment) on his relation to the cuban people.(since I didn't arrive in the US until 69', just a little 4 year tike, I view him in a vacuum) I guess I could denigrate MLK as a womanizer and adulterer, but I choose to think different. JFK cuts into my soul...and I believe judging an individual on a single incident, the cuban missile crisis, is
myopic.
myopic.
I certainly can’t judge your personal exodus from Cuba nor can I dismiss your subjective interpretation of JFK’s legacy (one that is clearly grounded in personal experiences). Either is counterproductive and unfair. My attempt was to evaluate Kennedy from a largely objective historiographical perspective. While its academic nature is both pedantic and possibly pretentious, it does serve a purpose. It looks at a historical figure in an objective manner. It seeks to understand their place in history and to critically analyze their contemporary milieu as it pertains to their actions. That was my goal. There was no intention to personalize this dialogue – my apologies if it drifted towards that anyway.
The Hoser @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:13 am
Mustang1 Mustang1:
The Dark Canuck The Dark Canuck:
Operation Northwoods. Anyone who is called a leader after authorizing this travesty is overrated.
Are you sure Kennedy’s authorized it (wasn’t Lemnitzer responsible?)? Most current historical studies conclude that McNamara and possible Kennedy himself, rejected it.
The documents I saw were signed by JFK and a lot of his Chief of Staff.
Mustang1 @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:20 am
The Dark Canuck The Dark Canuck:
The documents I saw were signed by JFK and a lot of his Chief of Staff.
And where can we find these documents that specifically show JFK’s executive authorization of Operation Northwoods?
markthepostie @ Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:36 am
Since the original topic was over-rated leaders, how about someone that is assumed to be a good leader, but possibly might not have lived up to the reputation he has.
I submit: General Omar Bradley. Two things come to my mind about him, his (lack of) control over Patton and the monumental failure to close the Falaise Gap in Normandy. Had the gap closed, the european portion of WWII could very well been over then. I admit that personal egos on everybodies part got in the way, but a leader should have been able to look past clashing personalities getting in the way of the mission. It appears that Bradley could not do this with his boss (Eisenhower), his equal (Montgomery) and one of his glory hunting subordiantes (Patton).
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