Quebec and separation

A good look at Newfoundland, in fact, that would be a great documentary-although probably already done, shows just how an imperial power works. You will note that 'independance' for Newfoundland was not even offered as a choice for newfies, Great Britain made sure of that. It was as corrupt and lousy a vote as any referendum ever done and it's still a sore spot. As I said before, the original separatists were the maritimers, New Brunswick rejected the idea of the 67 union in a referendum. Immediately after the union Nova Scotians elected a majority government who lost only three seats I believe and whose sole purpose was getting out of the union. Great Britain simply refused and since the only other alternative was violence or becoming an economic pariah (even the americans wouldn't help them at that point) they settled in to get better concessions. NOBODY wanted into Canada-except big businesses. Even a retarded monkey man would realize that it's not politically expedient to give your economic power to a bureaucracy over a thousand miles away. There is nothing inherently wrong in a 'federation'. If the feds were done away with completely and other provinces said 'OK, we have money, since we don't want all you carpetbaggers over here, we'll provide interest free or low interest loans so you can develop your industries. There's nothing wrong with that. Likewise, if you live in a small area whose leaders become corrupt and start pillaging, there's nothing wrong with having a higher level that's available to stop the pillaging. But we live in a country which does virtually the opposite of that, that, in effect, is an empire. Direct democracy or else busting the place up are the only two alternatives to that. Many here claim the NDP or some other party are the answer but to me they are just different Caesars, they might be saying nice things now, but one never knows. This is why people have always fought for 'freedom' and why it is the most powerful symbols we have-because not everybody agrees on what is best, and so people should be able to decide for themselves, and if they don't like it, they can move to another place which does. Unfortunately, here in Canada the choice is to move to switzerland.

[QUOTE BY= dino] [QUOTE BY= Samuel] So now it's a Léger poll and not a CBC one and now its your version of "real separation". Ignorant child, what the hell do you know about Québec. In case you haven't noticed, most adults on this site who are not from Québec refrain from advancing theories and rhetoric on something they know next to nothing about. We'll bust your sham Dominion. It's no longer just about Québec's interests, it's revenge now.[/QUOTE] Yeah it's a leger poll. Find me one television network that does it's own poll. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> What do I know about Quebec? Oh, that the vast majority want to remain in Canada. I have a friend who goes to the University of Alberta and she's in economics taking it in french and she was telling me in January that Gilles Duceppe was there to "promote" sovereignty. And Duceppe was talking about how he wants Quebec taken out of Canada with zero ties and my friend asked him why don't they campaign on it or better yet why don't they form a referendum question asking Quebecers "DO you want Quebec to become a country with zero ties political and economical ties to Canada yes or no?" And do you know what Gilles Duceppe said? He said nothing because he couldn't answer the question. This coming from the leader of a separist party.[/QUOTE] <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> All passion, no brains.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] A good look at Newfoundland, in fact, that would be a great documentary-although probably already done, shows just how an imperial power works. You will note that 'independance' for Newfoundland was not even offered as a choice for newfies, Great Britain made sure of that. It was as corrupt and lousy a vote as any referendum ever done and it's still a sore spot. As I said before, the original separatists were the maritimers, New Brunswick rejected the idea of the 67 union in a referendum. Immediately after the union Nova Scotians elected a majority government who lost only three seats I believe and whose sole purpose was getting out of the union. Great Britain simply refused and since the only other alternative was violence or becoming an economic pariah (even the americans wouldn't help them at that point) they settled in to get better concessions. NOBODY wanted into Canada-except big businesses. Even a retarded monkey man would realize that it's not politically expedient to give your economic power to a bureaucracy over a thousand miles away. There is nothing inherently wrong in a 'federation'. If the feds were done away with completely and other provinces said 'OK, we have money, since we don't want all you carpetbaggers over here, we'll provide interest free or low interest loans so you can develop your industries. There's nothing wrong with that. Likewise, if you live in a small area whose leaders become corrupt and start pillaging, there's nothing wrong with having a higher level that's available to stop the pillaging. But we live in a country which does virtually the opposite of that, that, in effect, is an empire. Direct democracy or else busting the place up are the only two alternatives to that. Many here claim the NDP or some other party are the answer but to me they are just different Caesars, they might be saying nice things now, but one never knows. This is why people have always fought for 'freedom' and why it is the most powerful symbols we have-because not everybody agrees on what is best, and so people should be able to decide for themselves, and if they don't like it, they can move to another place which does. Unfortunately, here in Canada the choice is to move to switzerland.[/QUOTE] You and your direct deomcracy. I know you take it seriously, but come on, Newfoundland? They'd be WAYYY poorer as a separate nation.

[QUOTE BY= Milton] You guys have missed the point. Big business controls what goes on in this country. If quebec managed to have a referendum on separation (assuming someone has the guts to state clearly that all ties are to be broken with Canada) and if the majority voted in favor of separation then the minority groups would come to the fore. The first nations would state their demands as would all the other groups who did not support separation. Then the crap would hit the fan. There is no way to pull Quebec out of Canada non violently. Once the violence begins the US will brings troops in to restore order and they will never go home. We will have become an official US protectorate. If you think quebecers have had it rough, imagine how things will go under the US thumb.[/QUOTE] Well they might leave, in like 40 years. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> I DO think everyone would fight against U.S. occupation if it lasted. We're so big and can't stand America.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Sounds like the assimilation of Quebec has begun then. That is how it started in Canada, canadians started reading, watching, and renting more american channels/papers/movies, etc. I'm not fixating on your use of the revenge term, I was explaining myself. If you want to find federal corruption in Quebec you need not thank the liberals, you can go all the way back through the last century and find it-conservative and liberal alike. Again, there is no point in your arguing here-there are almost no quebecers, and we will not be voting in a separatist referendum and have NO power over our elected officials. I've said before that I completely sympathize with the separatists in Quebec (and you're arguing with somebody who agrees with you??) and don't understand why you're preaching outside Quebec. For the amount of power canadians have you might as well be at a website in Paraguay telling them to respect separation. It is Quebecers and natives that need your arguments-not us. [/QUOTE] Yes Marcarc, but Americans speak English, and they've influenced much of the world. English Canada is still separate enough to improve. We still have difference accents, grammar and behave differently enough, except in some major cities which would take more work.

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= dino]I have a friend who goes to the University of Alberta and she's in economics taking it in french and she was telling me in January that Gilles Duceppe was there to "promote" sovereignty. And Duceppe was talking about how he wants Quebec taken out of Canada with zero ties and my friend asked him why don't they campaign on it or better yet why don't they form a referendum question asking Quebecers "DO you want Quebec to become a country with zero ties political and economical ties to Canada yes or no?" And do you know what Gilles Duceppe said? He said nothing because he couldn't answer the question. This coming from the leader of a separist party.[/QUOTE] Duceppe is a politician and like all of them, he is not without flaws. When Canadians say they would vote for him if he were federalist, I think that puts him right up there with the best. That silly question (do you want Quebec to become a country with zero ties political and economical ties to Canada) makes no sense. We just can't pry Québec off the map and take it somewhere safe from this lousy country. It is in both Québec's and Canada's best interests to enter into formal productive negotiations on just about everything. Consessions will need to be managed on both sides of the fence, everyone knows this except ignorant Canadians who dream of all out war. Michou, J. Trudeau likes to wear the Quebecker hat when it suits his ego. His father was a traitor to Québec who, not the least, invoked the War Measures Act against Quebeckers for self-serving political gain. Far worse than Martin's hijacking the airwaves IMO.[/QUOTE] Samuel, are you still on the FLQ? What, a bunch of terrorists should be allowed to run amok, doing anything they like? I notice a large amount of immaturity, dislike of authority amongst French Canadians. They could learn from the English that when you let your anger affect your judgment--thing get worse, not better. There is no reason why Quebec has to be separate to improve. We're a young country and do things slowly.

A "bunch" of terrorists perturbed? You may want to brush up on your history. That incident involved a few seriously deranged individuals and is no more a "bunch" of terrorists than Iraq had a "bunch" of WMDs. You don't send a firetruck to put out a match, unless you're looking to put on a memorable show.

I wouldn't bother replying here but that comment certainly hit the nail on the head for me. The comment was that 'french seem to have little respect for authority'. I don't think that's true, but symbolically it says lots as I would say the rest of Canada has TOO MUCH respect for authority. We are a monarchial government with a system of responsible government-we are NOT a democracy. Any government, to my mind that is not a democracy, deserves NO respect of its authority because it is not legitimate-it rules by force. Whether Quebec would replace one dictator with another remains to be seen and (may be) up to the people of Quebec. Unfortunately there ARE significant differences between canadians and americans and my remark on that was being quite facetious. Politically, americans are far more politically active-but you won't see that in the media we get-the last thing americans want other countries to know is how even the little bit of democracy they have works (they are too used to dealing with the few guys at the top in other countries). Thats why in Canada all we hear about the last election was that states with citizens initiatives voted against gay marriage so therefore the idea of citizens initiatives must be bad and not used.

Much of this debate seems to be centered on the ability of Québec to stand on its own two legs and be completely seperate from Canada. The fact of the matter is, however, that Québec and Canada will never be truly separate. As much as tenants of both federalism and separatism on both sides of the fence like to talk about leaving Québec to its fate, in today's north-american, and indeed, global, political and especially econimical systems, it is simply blind partisanry to believe that such a clean cut would take place given a victory of the Yes in Québec. I personnaly dont think that either Québec or Canada ca truly survive without the other and most of our political leaders know that. The most likely scenario, as was mentionend time and time again I am sure, is that we will end up as something resembling a true confederation or at least an economic union.

[QUOTE BY= Bassic] Much of this debate seems to be centered on the ability of Québec to stand on its own two legs and be completely seperate from Canada. The fact of the matter is, however, that Québec and Canada will never be truly separate. As much as tenants of both federalism and separatism on both sides of the fence like to talk about leaving Québec to its fate, in today's north-american, and indeed, global, political and especially econimical systems, it is simply blind partisanry to believe that such a clean cut would take place given a victory of the Yes in Québec. I personnaly dont think that either Québec or Canada ca truly survive without the other and most of our political leaders know that. The most likely scenario, as was mentionend time and time again I am sure, is that we will end up as something resembling a true confederation or at least an economic union. [/QUOTE] It will be tough for Quebec to be a country with no currency. You are mistaken Canada does not "need Quebec" It would do just fine without it. It's english Canada that has all the resources that keep this country rich. Minus 25% of the population more money just stays with people in english Canada not Quebec. What wealth does Quebec have? The mining industry in the northern Quebec? It will remain Canadian since the Natives have no intention of keeping there land in Quebec. They would simply form a province and remain Canadian with the help of the Canadian government and support of the Canadian people. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

There are countries in the world who function just fine without any natural resources, again, look at switzerland. Primary resources now account for a small percentage of trade, it is mistaken that either place won't be able to function. That's absurd, countries half the size and half the population of Quebec do just fine.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] There are countries in the world who function just fine without any natural resources, again, look at switzerland. Primary resources now account for a small percentage of trade, it is mistaken that either place won't be able to function. That's absurd, countries half the size and half the population of Quebec do just fine.[/QUOTE] Let's see the Pq party tell Quebecers there taxes are going to have to be as high as european ones to make up for the lose of revenues. You are right when you say countries function just fine without resources but there taxes are much much higher then here in Canada.

[QUOTE BY= dino] Let's see the Pq party tell Quebecers there taxes are going to have to be as high as european ones to make up for the lose of revenues. You are right when you say countries function just fine without resources but there taxes are much much higher then here in Canada.[/QUOTE] That's a good point, but i would take it to the next level by saying that most of the separatist or call them what you want think that the portion of the pay check they received every week going to Ottawa will stay in their pocket... insted of paying x% to ottawa and y% to Quebec on their paycheck they will really pay Z% to Quebec (Z% being the sum of x% + y% + probably another % for the lost of revenues) but that the P.Q won't say it.

Any State and many businesses simply wouldn't exist were it only based on mathematical conjectures. Québec sovereignty is no exception and could just as well draw greater investment than the Canadian umbrella currently fosters. We are resourceful and the only ones looking at it in the short term are people afraid of the immediate uncertainty following a successful vote. Let's face it, if you weren't afraid for and of yourselves, you'd keep doing what you've been doing for centuries which is not giving a shit about Québec.

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] Any State and many businesses simply wouldn't exist were it only based on mathematical conjectures. Québec sovereignty is no exception and could just as well draw greater investment than the Canadian umbrella currently fosters. We are resourceful and the only ones looking at it in the short term are people afraid of the immediate uncertainty following a successful vote. Let's face it, if you weren't afraid for and of yourselves, you'd keep doing what you've been doing for centuries which is not giving a shit about Québec.[/QUOTE] Never said or thaught the contrary but the fact remains that every separatist that i've talked to over the years all thinks that the part of the pay check they receive each week that goes to Ottawa will, in case of separation, stay in there pocket, they really think that the only part that's gonna come out of theyre check is the part they already pay to Quebec, nothing more and that's a utopy to think that.