Quebec and separation

[QUOTE BY= Merlin]Never said or thaught the contrary but the fact remains that every separatist that i've talked to over the years all thinks that the part of the pay check they receive each week that goes to Ottawa will, in case of separation, stay in there pocket, they really think that the only part that's gonna come out of theyre check is the part they already pay to Quebec, nothing more and that's a utopy to think that.[/QUOTE] Merlin show a blank map of Canada to your average Canadian and ask them to show you Halifax and most will get it wrong. My point, and I get this often here, is that people hold separatists to perfection and anything less doesn't make the grade. Life just doesn't work that way. Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must be first overcome. ~Samuel Johnson, 1759

One thing that is quite different between Quebec and the rest of canada-from what I've read at least-is the 'american' idea that taxation means the evil sheriff of Nottingham plundering the poor villagers. I would gladly pay even more taxes-if I knew that corporations and the wealthy were doing the same, and if I knew that the money was going to build an equitable society and not to pay off foreign investors, subsidize nuclear power sales and subsidize corrupt resource extractors. Of course the common sense revolution here in Ontario said that eight years ago-that they'd lower taxes, and we've seen how that turned out. Most canadians, even though they are highly underpaid, support current levels of taxation for the services they recieve. I especially think this would be true in Quebec, a lot of people have the passion that would translate into making personal sacrifices, what will be unpleasant is if it comes to that, and if there are those at the top who don't take a hit themselves.

[QUOTE BY= dino] I have a friend who goes to the University of Alberta and she's in economics taking it in french and she was telling me in January that Gilles Duceppe was there to "promote" sovereignty. And Duceppe was talking about how he wants Quebec taken out of Canada with zero ties and my friend asked him why don't they campaign on it or better yet why don't they form a referendum question asking Quebecers "DO you want Quebec to become a country with zero ties political and economical ties to Canada yes or no?" And do you know what Gilles Duceppe said? He said nothing because he couldn't answer the question. This coming from the leader of a separist party.[/QUOTE] Why don't your friend asked Duceppe to put that question in the next referendum : " do you want Québec to be separated and launched to the Moon ? ". Your friend take Duceppe for an idiot or what ??? You take Québécois as idiots or what ??? That silence from Duceppe was the best answer to a silly question. Do you guys from the ROC know how to do politics or what ??????? Geee... Like asking Canadians who are desesperately looking for differences from the Americans "do you want to be separated from the USA market with zero economical ties?"... Just help us separate in peace and everything will go fine !

[QUOTE BY= dino] It will be tough for Quebec to be a country with no currency. You are mistaken Canada does not "need Quebec" It would do just fine without it. It's english Canada that has all the resources that keep this country rich. Minus 25% of the population more money just stays with people in english Canada not Quebec. What wealth does Quebec have? The mining industry in the northern Quebec? It will remain Canadian since the Natives have no intention of keeping there land in Quebec. They would simply form a province and remain Canadian with the help of the Canadian government and support of the Canadian people. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> [/QUOTE] Quelle condescendance ce Dino hein ! Sache Dino que le CAnada a tout avantage à laisser le Québec utiliser la monnaie canadienne car cela lui rapportera 500 millions de $ can par année !!!!!! Si vous refusez le deal, nous irons voir du côté des States, en attendant cette monnaie unique des Amériques. Que vous êtes retardaires les amis Canadians !

Why do you put so much efforts at telling us all those federalists arguments Dino, Calumny, Jesse and company ??? Samuel, Michou and I will stay sovereignists all our lives ! Isn't it Samuel and Michou ? We won't get on the federalist side. We are here to convince you to let go Québec in peace... and to convince you that you have all to win in letting Québec go. Don't be fooled by the numbers. You want to get rid of that "whinning" province, that "have not" province, that Québec question... just put pressure on the political scene to split in peace. Would you be afraid to lose a bilinguism that makes Canada different from the States ???? Hey, wouldn't you be glad to get rid of that costly bilinguism ??? And don't tell me you "love bilinguism and love Québec and love multiculturalism". Don't do that thing again ! Me too I love languages, I love Québec and I love other cultures ! My wife was born outside Québec.

I don't think anybody here is trying to change the other's minds. On this issue, like most, people are set in their ways. The main point should be on bringing out information on the subject that people might not be aware of, to better understand the situation. Both sides have legitimate concerns, but personally I think the thread should just have information, not diatribes. People reading who are looking to understand both sides will get little from a conversation of incivility and bombast. For the quebec issue, although it is a minor issue for me since I can do nothing about it and have more important things to do than lobby my local politicians to 'let Quebec go'(which they wouldn't listen to anyway and even individual MP's have little say in it). But its' been awhile since we've heard of the peace of the braves initiative, who knows what has been accomplished since? Does anybody have links to native bands and their current positions? Plus, I'm looking for more info on Quebec's proportional representation that was introduced yet can't find much info on it. Finally, has ANY Quebec party made any concrete claims of what they would do if Quebec were sovereign?

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] I don't think anybody here is trying to change the other's minds. On this issue, like most, people are set in their ways. The main point should be on bringing out information on the subject that people might not be aware of, to better understand the situation. Both sides have legitimate concerns, but personally I think the thread should just have information, not diatribes. People reading who are looking to understand both sides will get little from a conversation of incivility and bombast. For the quebec issue, although it is a minor issue for me since I can do nothing about it and have more important things to do than lobby my local politicians to 'let Quebec go'(which they wouldn't listen to anyway and even individual MP's have little say in it). But its' been awhile since we've heard of the peace of the braves initiative, who knows what has been accomplished since? Does anybody have links to native bands and their current positions? Plus, I'm looking for more info on Quebec's proportional representation that was introduced yet can't find much info on it. Finally, has ANY Quebec party made any concrete claims of what they would do if Quebec were sovereign?[/QUOTE] The PQ have so much battles to win that it can't fight all of them all at once... The PQ knows about the Native question, of course. But right now, they are occupied at convincing once again the francophone and all the Québécois about sovereignty. Fight against those fear arguments brought by the federalist side ! Let's repeat it again. Québec (yes I am speaking in the name of Québec !!! so what) want to separate to have the political powers of its own destiny. It doesn't want war with Canada but will answer back to those who bring fear arguments against a separated Québec. Canada is a beautiful country outside Québec. Let go Québec ! Yes, when time comes : let go Québec. Don't come in Montréal to tell us how much you love us. It just won't work. Aren't you tired of all that constitutional mess ? No... ??? Really ??? Okay, let's fight for another 50 years. Contrary to what a lot of Canadians may think, the sovereignist movement is not just a project who is planned to get away (see how the 330 M $ flags program didn't work). No, the québécois sovereignist movement has 400 years of french settlement in America behind him. In 100 years, il will have 500 years... if sovereignty doesn't happen now, it will sooner or later, count on us. The latest strategy of the Federalists : brainwashing newcomers immigrants for Canada and NO vote in 1995 has divided us ! It won't happen again ! Count on us ! SHAME ON YOU FEDERALISTS AND OTTAWA ! SHAME ON YOU ! YOU DIVIDED US IN OUR OWN QUÉBEC COUNTRY... SHAME ON YOU !

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc]But its' been awhile since we've heard of the peace of the braves initiative, who knows what has been accomplished since? Does anybody have links to native bands and their current positions?[/QUOTE] Many dismiss the Peace of the Braves agreement as simply sending billions towards Québec's Natives, which if it were only that wouldn't be so bad in itself. However, the agreement goes much further such as giving control of the land back to Natives. In the following documentary (in French), you will see how the Cree First Nation of Waswanipi actually control and dictate where forestry activities can and cannot occur. Based on Native elders and master trappers contention that certain forestry activities were endangering wildlife despite science saying otherwise, they made an interesting discovery. It turned out they were right all along and science was flawed. This is just one concrete example of how the Peace of the Braves is making a difference on the ground, but there's much more to it such as making them partners in development, employment and profits. Peace of the Braves - Three Years After PART I: <a href="http://www.radio-canada.ca/Medianet/CBFT/LaSemaineVerte200505011230_2.asx">http://www.radio-canada.ca/Medianet/CBFT/LaSemaineVerte200505011230_2.asx</a> PART II: <a href="http://www.radio-canada.ca/Medianet/CBFT/LaSemaineVerte200505011230_3.asx">http://www.radio-canada.ca/Medianet/CBFT/LaSemaineVerte200505011230_3.asx</a> I'm so disgusted at people playing the Native card against "separatists" because they were duped into believing we are evil during the last referendum. Natives cherish their heritage as much as Quebecers do, but the billions invested in Northern Québec by "separatists" has also made them one of the most envied and thriving Aboriginals on the planet. Natives enjoy their SUVs, microwave ovens and TVs as much as anyone else and if someone believes they would give it all up to remain in Canada, they do not know the same Natives I do.

I think there were enough polls done to show that natives were fiercely opposed to separation. Don't interpret what I saying on this thread. I have no doubt that there are many who will 'use' the natives as an argument, there will be few because even the most retarded canadian knows how poorly they've been treated and can't really say 'they are better off with us'. I'm not sure if this is the thread I started but I started one of these and I"m only in it for information. Much thanks go to the poster above for the great link, not so much go to the poster before that for yet another diatribe. If Quebec were a monarchy and he were king then perhaps I'd consider that he speaks for every Quebecer, I don't. The PQ, like all political bodies has thousands of members, there's certainly no reason why a position paper can't be granted on what intentions are towards natives in a sovereign Quebec. Right now natives are canadian and have rights to land, so there is a vested interest in their well being. This isn't something 'being used against the PQ', this is an activist who works with natives and has native heritage and is worried about the condition of all natives, particularly if they are going to be part of a different country. This can be very good news for natives or very bad news, the department of indian affairs has done them no favours and if Quebec were to simply rely on direct relations with band members and omit the bureaucracy then I have no doubt they'd get more support, although I don't speak for natives. The problem I see is that Quebecers, like the ROC have similar feelings toward natives, like we saw at Oka I don't think it is a majority, but definitely a VERY vocal minority.

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] I'm so disgusted at people playing the Native card against "separatists" because they were duped into believing we are evil during the last referendum. Natives cherish their heritage as much as Quebecers do, but the billions invested in Northern Québec by "separatists" has also made them one of the most envied and thriving Aboriginals on the planet. Natives enjoy their SUVs, microwave ovens and TVs as much as anyone else and if someone believes they would give it all up to remain in Canada, they do not know the same Natives I do.[/QUOTE] Salut Samuel ! Let's also be disgusted at those comments about the "racism" of Québécois sovereignists ! À la guerre comme à la guerre, n'est-ce pas ? Mais c'est de mauvaise guerre, sachez-le Canadians ! Pas de bonne guerre ! Car vous pouvez compter sur 280 millions d'anglo-saxons à côté de vous en Amérique du Nord pour partager votre "incompréhension" de cet étrange Québec n'est-ce pas ? Continue to keep your eyes closed Canadian friends ! We will continue to build our Québec by our own... Sovereignty will come one day ! Stop doing some canadian propaganda neverteless please... or tell your politicians it's too much money spend for nothing. I personnaly find that stupid spending 330 millions $ to put canadian flags in Québec !!!! Don't you ! There you go. Now you can start asking Canada to let go Québec. " Personne au monde ne pourra jamais m'empêcher de connaître mon histoire, de l'assumer, d'en parler à voix haute et de vivre avec elle. Je peux faire l'indépendance du Québec en brandissant ma propre histoire et en accueillant les nouveaux Québécois. L'un n'empêche pas l'autre, sauf chez ceux qui ont un intérêt électoral à transformer les Québécois, un peuple profondément pacifiste, en xénophobes hargneux repliés sur eux-mêmes. " - Hélène Pedneault, écrivaine - Le Devoir Édition du samedi 5 et du dimanche 6 avril 2003 " Say a hundred times to a child that he is an idiot and will become one. " " Say a hundred times to a foreigner he's racist and will become racist. "

Nobody claimed Quebec sovereigntists are racists. SOME might be racist, just as any other culture will have its own group of racists. Clearly what occurs in Canada towards natives is systemic racism, I really have no trouble with that label. To think that sovereigntists have a monopoly on native racism is absurd, we need only look at the shooting and actions in Ipperwash in Ontario, Burnt Church in New Brunswick, and many many more horrifying stories from out west. To me the only reason to talk about the systemic racism in Quebec is because the native issue is the only one I care about. I don't speak for other canadians, but personally I don't care whether Quebec separates and like I said, if I lived there now I'd be pushing for a referendum. We have seen how ugly Quebecers can get toward natives so it is a justifiable reason to be talking about it. If any other province were separating, or trying to, I'd be writing the same thing.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Nobody claimed Quebec sovereigntists are racists. SOME might be racist, just as any other culture will have its own group of racists. Clearly what occurs in Canada towards natives is systemic racism, I really have no trouble with that label. To think that sovereigntists have a monopoly on native racism is absurd, we need only look at the shooting and actions in Ipperwash in Ontario, Burnt Church in New Brunswick, and many many more horrifying stories from out west. To me the only reason to talk about the systemic racism in Quebec is because the native issue is the only one I care about. I don't speak for other canadians, but personally I don't care whether Quebec separates and like I said, if I lived there now I'd be pushing for a referendum. We have seen how ugly Quebecers can get toward natives so it is a justifiable reason to be talking about it. If any other province were separating, or trying to, I'd be writing the same thing.[/QUOTE] Well Marc ! Sorry to disappoint you but one of the strategies of the Federalists was to claim that nationalism in Québec was an ethnic nationalism. All sort of comparisons to nazi governments were made ! Very sad ! Very very sad ! Who to blame ! Québec nationalism is civic from 1960. Of course, it was french canadian "pure laine" mainly but Bourgeault and others have claimed (in english) in the '60 that Québec nationalism was civic and included everyone in Québec...

All nationalism is 'ethnic' nationalism, because we are all from some ethnic or other. I don't know what the difference is between ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism is, you certainly don't have to go to nazi germany for examples. Canada no doubt says the same thing, and Quebec, quite justifiably, says no you're not. That's what sovereignty means. The question is really a simple one, Mohawks equally claim to be sovereign, and equally justifiably- will Quebec sovereignty override their sovereignty? Or will it say, as you seem to imply (but I can't be sure), that Quebec is 'civically national' and therefore includes all natives whether they want to be or not. The problem,as I said, is that the separatist movement knows that it would be suicide to say that once separate we're going to let all the native groups have sovereignty. It would not even be expedient to say that the Canadian government could have jurisdiction over native reserves. I can certainly understand why they do it, the point here is that natives and canadians are justified in seeking an answer to such a question.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] All nationalism is 'ethnic' nationalism, because we are all from some ethnic or other. I don't know what the difference is between ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism is, you certainly don't have to go to nazi germany for examples. Canada no doubt says the same thing, and Quebec, quite justifiably, says no you're not. That's what sovereignty means. The question is really a simple one, Mohawks equally claim to be sovereign, and equally justifiably- will Quebec sovereignty override their sovereignty? Or will it say, as you seem to imply (but I can't be sure), that Quebec is 'civically national' and therefore includes all natives whether they want to be or not. The problem,as I said, is that the separatist movement knows that it would be suicide to say that once separate we're going to let all the native groups have sovereignty. It would not even be expedient to say that the Canadian government could have jurisdiction over native reserves. I can certainly understand why they do it, the point here is that natives and canadians are justified in seeking an answer to such a question.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure you're telling what Canadians think globally about Québec !!! Sorry. There's canadian nationalism and québec nationalism... We want (sovereignists) CAnada out of Québec ! That's all. We don't want to "brake" your country !!! What's that so awful argument. Does Canada need that much Québec to exist ?????? Geee... go on and get a life. Be Canadians at last... without Québec... without bilinguism that cost all energy and money ! Out of Québec Canada ! Please... peacefully !

Unfortunately the 'we' there does not apply to anybody but yourself and any group you may represent. After the referendum then we'll discuss such things. It sounds to me then that you are saying that if a native band claims it wants to remain canadian that you will make them leave. I don't see how that is possible, and certainly isn't a position you will find much support for. I am not speaking for other canadians or canadians in general or any such thing, the issue here is mohawk sovereignty and any other native sovereignty who demands it. If there is NO position on such things then we must speculate, and Quebec is little better in this regard than the rest of canada, so therefore the speculation is not an attractive one. I am a member of several native rights organizations so, as I said, this is all I care about. I'm not crazy about your messages posted here, just as I know you aren't crazy about mine, and I don't speak for canadians but myself when I say that I would most certainly leave Quebec to separate peacefully. In fact I think that would be a wonderful symbol of Canada in that we'd be the first country I am aware of that set the precedence for a minority group to separate. No violence is necessary or anything, it would be a real monument for Canada. BUT the native issue demands we pay attention to what happens to those most 'at risk'. They are canadians now who have more of a right to their land mass than Quebecers, so that's a human rights issue and just because Quebec votes to separate doesn't mean canadians (at least this one) are going to simply abandon them to whatever Quebec may have in store.