Quebec and separation

[QUOTE BY=Samuel I apologise ahead of time for what I'm about to say, but you're such a DUMB ASS. The French version of the CBC (Radio-Canada) is nothing but an anti-separatist propaganda machine put in place to make people like you feel good about the country. Any information coming out of there concerning Quebeckers is extremely biased and it caters to anti-separatists. Any poll they spew will draw votes from anti-separatists.[/quote] And i suppose that Le Devoir doesn't do in separatist propaganda...

So now it's a Léger poll and not a CBC one and now its your version of "real separation". Ignorant child, what the hell do you know about Québec. In case you haven't noticed, most adults on this site who are not from Québec refrain from advancing theories and rhetoric on something they know next to nothing about. We'll bust your sham Dominion. It's no longer just about Québec's interests, it's revenge now.

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] So now it's a Léger poll and not a CBC one and now its your version of "real separation". Ignorant child, what the hell do you know about Québec. In case you haven't noticed, most adults on this site who are not from Québec refrain from advancing theories and rhetoric on something they know next to nothing about. We'll bust your sham Dominion. It's no longer just about Québec's interests, it's revenge now.[/QUOTE] Yeah it's a leger poll. Find me one television network that does it's own poll. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> What do I know about Quebec? Oh, that the vast majority want to remain in Canada. I have a friend who goes to the University of Alberta and she's in economics taking it in french and she was telling me in January that Gilles Duceppe was there to "promote" sovereignty. And Duceppe was talking about how he wants Quebec taken out of Canada with zero ties and my friend asked him why don't they campaign on it or better yet why don't they form a referendum question asking Quebecers "DO you want Quebec to become a country with zero ties political and economical ties to Canada yes or no?" And do you know what Gilles Duceppe said? He said nothing because he couldn't answer the question. This coming from the leader of a separist party.

For your information Dino, if you lived in Québec and had gone to the dépanneur on Saturday morning May 14th, this is what you would have seen splashed across newspaper’s front pages. Seas of fleur-de-lysée flags or torn maple leaves pictures accompanied by bold titles such as: Le Retour de la Fièvre Nationaliste ! Divorçons ! Sovereignty, the Québec paradox. To continue as you do in saying that the movement is not important because YOUR poll indicates otherwise is basically closing your eyes to what has been really happening in Québec in the past few months. Mind you, you are no worse than most Canadians. This is what Justin Trudeau, a Montrealer and a true federalist like his papa, said about it a few days ago : "That's one of the things that really scares me right now," said the younger Trudeau. "I think we are far closer to the separation of Quebec than we have been for a very long time and I don't think anyone in Ottawa particularly, but in the rest of Canada, is aware or ready to deal with it." As for Canadians’ unawareness or inability to deal with a rising Québec independance movement, J. Trudeau is absolutely right on both counts. Any visit to Canadian forums and a few reads about the subject of Québec only serve to prove how out-of-step Canada presently is with Québec. For some reason, I am reminded of Kübler-Ross’ five stages of death and grief. First there is denial, then anger, followed by bargaining, depression and acceptance. Canadians have just entered the first two stages. Three more to go. But is Canada dying ? For more and more Québecers it is and they have no intention of going down with it.

[QUOTE BY= dino]I have a friend who goes to the University of Alberta and she's in economics taking it in french and she was telling me in January that Gilles Duceppe was there to "promote" sovereignty. And Duceppe was talking about how he wants Quebec taken out of Canada with zero ties and my friend asked him why don't they campaign on it or better yet why don't they form a referendum question asking Quebecers "DO you want Quebec to become a country with zero ties political and economical ties to Canada yes or no?" And do you know what Gilles Duceppe said? He said nothing because he couldn't answer the question. This coming from the leader of a separist party.[/QUOTE] Duceppe is a politician and like all of them, he is not without flaws. When Canadians say they would vote for him if he were federalist, I think that puts him right up there with the best. That silly question (do you want Quebec to become a country with zero ties political and economical ties to Canada) makes no sense. We just can't pry Québec off the map and take it somewhere safe from this lousy country. It is in both Québec's and Canada's best interests to enter into formal productive negotiations on just about everything. Consessions will need to be managed on both sides of the fence, everyone knows this except ignorant Canadians who dream of all out war. Michou, J. Trudeau likes to wear the Quebecker hat when it suits his ego. His father was a traitor to Québec who, not the least, invoked the War Measures Act against Quebeckers for self-serving political gain. Far worse than Martin's hijacking the airwaves IMO.

Actually, the 'five stages of death' theory has been pretty well debunked. Most canadians ARE unaware of how things are in Quebec, just as Quebec is pretty unaware of 'goins on' in other provinces. Take a look at most of your papers or news (if thats' where you get them) and you'll notice next to nothing about what is actually happening right next door. I live in Waterloo and have no idea what's going on 15 minutes away in Guelph. Don't blame canadians for this, its a pretty obvious reaction that when somebody says they want to 'break up' the country then people will oppose. People don't like change, even half the people in Quebec. Then of course, there are those like me who don't care and perfectly understand the seperatist claims, the maritimers were the ORIGINAL separatists! Fortunately, you don't have a british empire who will outright say 'screw you'. Keep in mind also that you are at a FEDERALIST site, hence the 'vivelecanada', so really, what else would you expect here? Go to a mohawk site, or an albertan seperatist site, and no doubt you can find a website for virtually every stripe of seperation and you'll find a far better welcome. The only reason I say that is because of the 'revenge' comment, hardly a good way to start a new country. The vast vast vast majority of canadians don't give quebec a second thought, why give the rest of canada a second thought?

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] Michou, J. Trudeau likes to wear the Quebecker hat when it suits his ego. His father was a traitor to Québec who, not the least, invoked the War Measures Act against Quebeckers for self-serving political gain. Far worse than Martin's hijacking the airwaves IMO.[/QUOTE] Quoting J Trudeau does not mean a seal of approval has been given to everything he says. I am well aware of who he is and how he thinks just like his "cher papa". He has no clout in Québec anyway, but living here in Montreal does make him a more reliable observer of Québec trends than 100 Dinos living in denial somewhere out west.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc]The only reason I say that is because of the 'revenge' comment, hardly a good way to start a new country. The vast vast vast majority of canadians don't give quebec a second thought, why give the rest of canada a second thought?[/QUOTE] Marcarc if you're implying my use of "revenge" is we'll rebel against Canada after successful sovereignty is achieved, you misinterpreted it. Our busting away is now a vengeful motive, for me it is anyway. See federal corruption and centuries of wrongdoings towards Québec for an explanation.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc]Most canadians ARE unaware of how things are in Quebec, just as Quebec is pretty unaware of 'goins on' in other provinces. Take a look at most of your papers or news (if thats' where you get them) and you'll notice next to nothing about what is actually happening right next door. I live in Waterloo and have no idea what's going on 15 minutes away in Guelph.[/QUOTE] That's not the case Marcarc. The following Google link will show a roundup of Québec headlines. You will notice headlines about Saskatchewan, New Brunswick and many other non Québec issues. I can't speak for the ROC, but if there is a genuine disinterest for Québec there, that's not the case here. <a href="http://news.google.com/news?ned=fr_ca&topic=n">http://news.google.com/news?ned=fr_ca&topic=n</a>

I didn't say there was NO coverage, but those headlines certainly tell little about what's going on. Following the PM around and reporting on his meetings don't give much information. Had the PM not been in NB, for example, there would be no story there and there is certainly no useful information coming from one paragraph headlines. I am aware the 'revenge' item wasn't meant violently, but even use of the term is derogatory. There have also been plenty of provincial scandals within Quebec but it's highly doubtful that people use THAT as a reason to break up Quebec into even smaller pieces. It is unfortunate that you make separation so personal, since that makes it far more difficult to 'spread the message'. There are plenty of objective reasons to want sovereignty, and it is an issue that even those who vote for it would do so skittishly, as it is a big step. These are people who need to know that this is well thought out and for the best interests of all, not as a personal vendetta. That's just my opinion, but I really don't see why you'd waste your time at a site like this where there are few Quebecers anyway, WE aren't the ones going to be voting on it!

If you want to highlight and hang on my "revenge" comment, that's your prerogative. In the little time I've spent here, I have provided much more information and corrected many distortions than my personal misgivings. Revenge is something new for me and many other Quebeckers concerning the issue, you can thank the Liberals for that. Quebeckers are much more aware of ROC issues than you think. Both French and English media covers them and we read, listen and watch it.

Sounds like the assimilation of Quebec has begun then. That is how it started in Canada, canadians started reading, watching, and renting more american channels/papers/movies, etc. I'm not fixating on your use of the revenge term, I was explaining myself. If you want to find federal corruption in Quebec you need not thank the liberals, you can go all the way back through the last century and find it-conservative and liberal alike. Again, there is no point in your arguing here-there are almost no quebecers, and we will not be voting in a separatist referendum and have NO power over our elected officials. I've said before that I completely sympathize with the separatists in Quebec (and you're arguing with somebody who agrees with you??) and don't understand why you're preaching outside Quebec. For the amount of power canadians have you might as well be at a website in Paraguay telling them to respect separation. It is Quebecers and natives that need your arguments-not us.

Assimilation? That was attempted and put in play much earlier than recently. Our interest in ROC issues has nothing to do with assimilation and everything to do with being aware of our surroundings. It's a shame it isn't reciprocal, at least according to you it isn't. I'll say it again, my engaging Canadians is strictly out of setting the record straight when and where it's needed. You won't get an argument out of me from people simply against Québec sovereignty. It's when these people distort facts or wrongfully vilify "separatists" with propaganda that I intervene.

[QUOTE BY= michou] For your information Dino, if you lived in Québec and had gone to the dépanneur on Saturday morning May 14th, this is what you would have seen splashed across newspaper’s front pages. Seas of fleur-de-lysée flags or torn maple leaves pictures accompanied by bold titles such as: Le Retour de la Fièvre Nationaliste ! Divorçons ! Sovereignty, the Québec paradox. To continue as you do in saying that the movement is not important because YOUR poll indicates otherwise is basically closing your eyes to what has been really happening in Québec in the past few months. Mind you, you are no worse than most Canadians. This is what Justin Trudeau, a Montrealer and a true federalist like his papa, said about it a few days ago : "That's one of the things that really scares me right now," said the younger Trudeau. "I think we are far closer to the separation of Quebec than we have been for a very long time and I don't think anyone in Ottawa particularly, but in the rest of Canada, is aware or ready to deal with it." As for Canadians’ unawareness or inability to deal with a rising Québec independance movement, J. Trudeau is absolutely right on both counts. Any visit to Canadian forums and a few reads about the subject of Québec only serve to prove how out-of-step Canada presently is with Québec. For some reason, I am reminded of Kübler-Ross’ five stages of death and grief. First there is denial, then anger, followed by bargaining, depression and acceptance. Canadians have just entered the first two stages. Three more to go. But is Canada dying ? For more and more Québecers it is and they have no intention of going down with it. [/QUOTE] My poll? No sorry it's all the polls that have been in all the Quebec newspapers. Things are were they were in 1995. There was one poll in april that said sovereignty was at 54% two days later there was one that said it was 47%. Who to believe? Doesn't matter to me. Anyone with a brain in Quebec knows you can't form a country with 51% of the people.

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] Duceppe is a politician and like all of them, he is not without flaws. When Canadians say they would vote for him if he were federalist, I think that puts him right up there with the best.[/QUOTE] The amount of people who would vote for him was at 2 % last election. Wow what a huge number.<img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> [QUOTE BY= Samuel] That silly question (do you want Quebec to become a country with zero ties political and economical ties to Canada) makes no sense. We just can't pry Québec off the map and take it somewhere safe from this lousy country. It is in both Québec's and Canada's best interests to enter into formal productive negotiations on just about everything. Consessions will need to be managed on both sides of the fence, everyone knows this except ignorant Canadians who dream of all out war.[/QUOTE] Nobody dreams of all out war. Why would anyone in Canada want Quebec around if the vast majority wanted to break up the country. Have fun forming a country with 51% of the vote. No it's not in Canada's interest to hang around with Quebec. We would have OUR OWN CURRENCY you would not. We would have the majority of resources YOU WOULD NOT. Why is it when other countries spilt up they realize that if there leaving the country they are on there own. Quebecers are like well... we would need this and we want this and there WILL be formal ties..etc. It's a load of crap. YOU vote to go and win with over 60% then go! Here's an article from the toronto star after Bernard Landry said Quebec would be "richer" if it were a country. May 9, 2005. 01:00 AM >ADVERTISEMENT Editorial: The PQ fantasy world Think of it as Monopoly, Quebec-separatist style. You get to bust up Canada, collect $200 for passing Go and hit a $13 billion Free Parking jackpot, all with just one quick roll of the dice. You can't lose. That's the gist of the latest Parti Québécois financial study purporting to "prove" that separatism is a winning strategy, rather than a foolish leap in the dark. PQ leader Bernard Landry claims "a sovereign Quebec would be in a much better situation," just as former PQ leader Jacques Parizeau argued "federalism is costing us a fortune" during the 1995 referendum. Today, Landry claims Quebec stands to chalk up an impressive $13.8 billion surplus over five years, instead of running a deficit, just by going its own way. Of course, Landry gets that number by adopting the rosiest possible scenario after a breakup. Quebecers would recapture $41 billion in taxes they now pay to the federal government, though they would lose $9.6 billion in transfers. Even so, Quebec would be able to deliver the full range of critical federal services, such as employment insurance, old age security, health, aid to industry, defence, foreign affairs and customs. But Ottawa would have to agree, bien sûr, to let Quebec assume less of Canada's $500 billion national debt than its population warrants. Quebecers make up 23 per cent of the population; the PQ proposes to assume 18 per cent of the debt, reducing its carrying cost. And of course the PQ assumes Quebec's currency and growth rate would remain stable. There would be no financial shock accompanying the breakup of one of the world's bigger economies. Creditors would not demand Quebec pay a hefty premium on its debt, even though it would be one of the most heavily burdened nations on earth. And there would be no capital flight or job losses. This is what the French call "dreaming in colour." It's a fantasy. A less rosy scenario was painted by economist Marcel Côté, a former adviser to Brian Mulroney and Robert Bourassa, during the 1995 debate. In a book-length economic study titled "If Quebec goes ..." that richly deserves to be updated to take current conditions into account, Côté predicted Quebec at the time stood to inherit a crippling $200 billion debt, unmanageable deficits and a devalued currency. Quebec would have had to increase taxes and cut services, plunging the economy into a recession. More than 200,000 jobs might have been lost. Capital would have fled. The economy might have collapsed. Canada would have suffered, too, facing recession, high interest rates, federal service cuts and high joblessness. Quebec's trade with other provinces would have taken a hit, further impoverishing the new state. Ultimately, Quebecers themselves will have to decide which of these scenarios is the more likely. But the PQ claim that breaking up Canada would be a painless process defies belief. There would be steep costs. They would be borne by all Canadians, Quebecers included. Anyone who pretends otherwise, is dreaming in colour