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[QUOTE BY= Stymiest]
... What I fail to see is what exactly any of that has to do with my points I have brought forth to this discussion board. [/QUOTE]

My list of Québec names had a lot to do with the points you brought forward Stymiest. You spoke of lack of knowledge about each other's national make up, and then continued on about your 'expertise' on the subject. In truth, there is very little knowledge from both sides of the cultural and national divide. That said, a nation that solely holds together by political and territorial arrangements is not much of a nation at all. It is just that, an arrangement, nothing more, like a forced marriage contract between two strangers. As we woud say here in Québec : "Ça fait pas des enfants forts".

[QUOTE BY= Stymiest] I never claimed to be an expert on Quebec Michou, I simply take my information from a sociological perspective on what I have observed since moving to Quebec.[/QUOTE]

Then keep on with your observations but always remember that your conclusions will always be tainted by your own opinions, at least until you know perfectly well who those people I listed are and what they do.

[QUOTE BY= Stymiest]What you just did was use a false argumentation against me which is called a sophism in an attempt to smear my credibility without actually making a clear and concise response to any of my perfectly valid points that I brought up.[/QUOTE]

I never said your points weren't valid, just that you cannot say you know something when have merely scratched the surface of what you are talking about. Québécers know no more about the ROC than the ROC knows about Québec. It takes two to ignore each other and that ignorance basically comes from indifference towards each other. Québec has its own culture while Canada's own culture strangely ressembles its southern neighbors'. American culture, everyone knows about. So by de facto, Québécers know a bit more about the ROC than the other side does about Québec.

[QUOTE BY= Stymiest]great, you asked me to name some prominent cultural Quebec icons, now in turn how about you name some prominent New Brunswick icons for me... oh wait why would I even bother to give you a list as this is an internet forum and you would simply goto one of your many reliable online blog info sources (wikipedia, google, etc) and claim an astounding victory over a so-called inferior being.[/QUOTE]

I don't have to google anything. I can tell you straight out that I know very littly about NewBrunswickers of worldwide renown. I do know of Antonine Maillet, Marie-Jo Thériault and Edith Butler but only because their careers crossed over into Québec. I would bet that most Canadians don't even know who these three women are. More proof that Canada holds together by mere arrangement but that is has little to offer in its national call for unity from coast to coast.

This thread is not about Québec separatists, it is about Separat........ism. When you get down to it, both Canada and Québec ARE separate from each other in terms of history, culture, language etc... We share the same continent but that is about all of it. It always makes me laugh when I hear Canadians say they hate separatists but love Québec. What an oxymoron that is. It is like saying "I hate federalists, but I love Canada". Very funny.

Canada and Québec will be much better off when they become sovereign nations in their own right and THEN make arrangements between each other on a free and equal basis.

   

[QUOTE BY= michou] [QUOTE BY= Stymiest]
... What I fail to see is what exactly any of that has to do with my points I have brought forth to this discussion board. [/QUOTE]

My list of Québec names had a lot to do with the points you brought forward Stymiest. You spoke of lack of knowledge about each other's national make up, and then continued on about your 'expertise' on the subject. In truth, there is very little knowledge from both sides of the cultural and national divide. That said, a nation that solely holds together by political and territorial arrangements is not much of a nation at all. It is just that, an arrangement, nothing more, like a forced marriage contract between two strangers. As we woud say here in Québec : "Ça fait pas des enfants forts".

[QUOTE BY= Stymiest] I never claimed to be an expert on Quebec Michou, I simply take my information from a sociological perspective on what I have observed since moving to Quebec.[/QUOTE]

Then keep on with your observations but always remember that your conclusions will always be tainted by your own opinions, at least until you know perfectly well who those people I listed are and what they do.

[QUOTE BY= Stymiest]What you just did was use a false argumentation against me which is called a sophism in an attempt to smear my credibility without actually making a clear and concise response to any of my perfectly valid points that I brought up.[/QUOTE]

I never said your points weren't valid, just that you cannot say you know something when have merely scratched the surface of what you are talking about. Québécers know no more about the ROC than the ROC knows about Québec. It takes two to ignore each other and that ignorance basically comes from indifference towards each other. Québec has its own culture while Canada's own culture strangely ressembles its southern neighbors'. American culture, everyone knows about. So by de facto, Québécers know a bit more about the ROC than the other side does about Québec.

[QUOTE BY= Stymiest]great, you asked me to name some prominent cultural Quebec icons, now in turn how about you name some prominent New Brunswick icons for me... oh wait why would I even bother to give you a list as this is an internet forum and you would simply goto one of your many reliable online blog info sources (wikipedia, google, etc) and claim an astounding victory over a so-called inferior being.[/QUOTE]

I don't have to google anything. I can tell you straight out that I know very littly about NewBrunswickers of worldwide renown. I do know of Antonine Maillet, Marie-Jo Thériault and Edith Butler but only because their careers crossed over into Québec. I would bet that most Canadians don't even know who these three women are. More proof that Canada holds together by mere arrangement but that is has little to offer in its national call for unity from coast to coast.

This thread is not about Québec separatists, it is about Separat........ism. When you get down to it, both Canada and Québec ARE separate from each other in terms of history, culture, language etc... We share the same continent but that is about all of it. It always makes me laugh when I hear Canadians say they hate separatists but love Québec. What an oxymoron that is. It is like saying "I hate federalists, but I love Canada". Very funny.

Canada and Québec will be much better off when they become sovereign nations in their own right and THEN make arrangements between each other on a free and equal basis. [/QUOTE]


You are a pompass ass in thinking that Canada's culture is America's--Canada's POPULAR culture is America's, but there are lots of people in rural areas and major cities who do lots of different things--especially in the country. Quebec has French TV, music, etc....but it still speaks a much less refined version of French than English Canadians do English.



It should also be added Michou that if Quebec were separate--it would not be equal. It would be dominated just as the Soviet Union dominated Finland and America dominates Canada, Canada would dominate and control Quebec in all areas except culture--maybe even culture.

   

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed]
You are a pompass ass in thinking that Canada's culture is America's--Canada's POPULAR culture is America's, but there are lots of people in rural areas and major cities who do lots of different things--especially in the country. [/QUOTE]

Have I touched a raw nerve ? It seems like it as sometimes the truth hurts.
Cultural identity is all important in establishing nationhood. It goes back to what I said in that Canada is made up of regional arrangements and is called a federation for that reason. "Canada" is a political creation and even though Canadians try very hard at proving the contrary, there is no such thing as the Canadian nation. Canada's culture is being gobbled up and/or squashed by its American neighbor. Looking at the amount of Canadian cultural productions and the number of Canadians who actually favor them is dismally tiny considering Canada's size in population.

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] Quebec has French TV, music, etc....but it still speaks a much less refined version of French than English Canadians do English. [/QUOTE]
That is an old Canadian myth used to better debase its French population and a myth that has been debunked years ago. In francophone countries, Québec's French is not perceived as being "less refined" (except maybe by Canadians such as yourself who do not speak nor understand the French language). There is such a thing as international French and what can be heard on television here is a good example of it. According to the international francophone TV industry, the Québec French in this instance is flawless. In France, the preference goes to a distorted Parisian French. As for street talk, the Québec language is rich with idiosyncrasies and accents dating back to 17th century spoken french. If we were able to travel back to that time, people in France would have less difficulties understanding Québécers than today's Parisian French. Does that make it less 'refined'? Again, an Anglo's view on how to better ridicule something they don't understand or know nothing about.

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] Canada would dominate and control Quebec in all areas except culture--maybe even culture.[/QUOTE]
Canada has no power to control or dominate anything. Not when it is so loosely tied up in a federation of disparate provinces who have little in common except a flag and a national anthem (both of which were Québec creations by the way). I have no reason to worry about Canada's domination. Canadians will have enough work at hand just trying to keep the federation together when Québec becomes independent before they can begin trying and even start thinking about dominating another national entity. Better luck next time with the scarecrow Perturbed.

   

ditto

   

Michou, the chances of Quebec becoming independent are quite low. You can even seen in in Gilles Duceppes face that independence is not quite as attractive as it was during the sponsorship scandal. That would be because so many quebecers associated Canada with the Liberals and for the past 3 months they've seen something different. infact 72% of quebecers approve of harper! That's right behind Alberta at 77%.


As for you saying that the Canadian nation is being cuturally swallowed up by America I agree! When 85% of magazines in Canada are American, almost all tv shows at night time are american, 99% of the movies we see are American and the majority of the music you hear on the radio (65%) is american it's quite obvious that Canadian culture is shoved away in a corner so American culture can continue to dominate us.


Michou you should at least know that even though Canada is being gobbled up by America that not eveyone in Canada tolerates this at all including myself. If you look at the world they too are so dominated by American culture that it's on the same level as Canada.


When Harper spends 50 million dollars on culture over 3 years while each and every year America will be spending billions and their culture comes right over the border goes against ours,surprise surprise there's is much better. Could it be because of the level of money they spend on it makes it much more enjoyable?


Also michou you should ask yourself what Quebec culture would be like if the United States had 300 million french speakers? Were all the movies coming out of hollywood are french speaking all their tv shows are french speaking, all their magazines are written in french and all there musicians sing in french. Quebec culture would be doing exactly what Canadians culture is doing right know; it's drowning in American culture.


So michou when you want to write that Quebec culture is much more superior then Canadian culture you should really start to realize the reason Quebec culture can thrive is because no one is challengin it.

Example? Look at much music and musique plus our two music tv channels for english and french Canada. In March MTV came across the border without anyone getting to voice their opinion on it. As musique plus remains without competition, much music after 22 years now will have to compete against an American music channel. And we on english Canada will do what we always do we will compare our Canadian music channel with the American and gee I wonder which on will be better? Could it be the MTv with global profits of 3 billion dollars which happens to dominate 169 countries? And while English Canada has to constantly fight for the right to have Canadian things thrive in Canada without the United States thinking they have a right to be in our country people in Quebec will continue to enjoy musique plus and think highly of it because no foreign country is actually challenging it kind of like no foreign country has ever challeneged your tv shows, movies, magazines and so on.

   

[QUOTE BY= dino] Michou, the chances of Quebec becoming independent are quite low. You can even seen in in Gilles Duceppes face that independence is not quite as attractive as it was during the sponsorship scandal. That would be because so many quebecers associated Canada with the Liberals and for the past 3 months they've seen something different. infact 72% of quebecers approve of harper! That's right behind Alberta at 77%.


As for you saying that the Canadian nation is being cuturally swallowed up by America I agree! When 85% of magazines in Canada are American, almost all tv shows at night time are american, 99% of the movies we see are American and the majority of the music you hear on the radio (65%) is american it's quite obvious that Canadian culture is shoved away in a corner so American culture can continue to dominate us.


Michou you should at least know that even though Canada is being gobbled up by America that not eveyone in Canada tolerates this at all including myself. If you look at the world they too are so dominated by American culture that it's on the same level as Canada.


When Harper spends 50 million dollars on culture over 3 years while each and every year America will be spending billions and their culture comes right over the border goes against ours,surprise surprise there's is much better. Could it be because of the level of money they spend on it makes it much more enjoyable?


Also michou you should ask yourself what Quebec culture would be like if the United States had 300 million french speakers? Were all the movies coming out of hollywood are french speaking all their tv shows are french speaking, all their magazines are written in french and all there musicians sing in french. Quebec culture would be doing exactly what Canadians culture is doing right know; it's drowning in American culture.


So michou when you want to write that Quebec culture is much more superior then Canadian culture you should really start to realize the reason Quebec culture can thrive is because no one is challengin it.

Example? Look at much music and musique plus our two music tv channels for english and french Canada. In March MTV came across the border without anyone getting to voice their opinion on it. As musique plus remains without competition, much music after 22 years now will have to compete against an American music channel. And we on english Canada will do what we always do we will compare our Canadian music channel with the American and gee I wonder which on will be better? Could it be the MTv with global profits of 3 billion dollars which happens to dominate 169 countries? And while English Canada has to constantly fight for the right to have Canadian things thrive in Canada without the United States thinking they have a right to be in our country people in Quebec will continue to enjoy musique plus and think highly of it because no foreign country is actually challenging it kind of like no foreign country has ever challeneged your tv shows, movies, magazines and so on.
[/QUOTE]


The French have run wild in the federal political system. They have a subsidized culture.

   

[QUOTE]Have I touched a raw nerve ? It seems like it as sometimes the truth hurts.
Cultural identity is all important in establishing nationhood. [/QUOTE]

Right but identity is established via institutions, not TV shows and movies. You seem to think French culture is more advanced due to this....the attack on English institutions has not been by America but by our own government--getting rid of our old flag, old anthem, and changing our immigration policy and instituting multiculturalism.


[QUOTE]
It goes back to what I said in that Canada is made up of regional arrangements and is called a federation for that reason. "Canada" is a political creation and even though Canadians try very hard at proving the contrary, there is no such thing as the Canadian nation.[/QUOTE]

Actually though there are regional dialects, Canadian English culture is more homogenous in the major cities at least around the country than in the United States, where dialects of English vary widely. Does this mean America has no culture? Canada's dialects of English are more similar than America's--we are more united than America as they had civil wars and only unite when they are at war with another country.


[QUOTE]Canada's culture is being gobbled up and/or squashed by its American neighbor. Looking at the amount of Canadian cultural productions and the number of Canadians who actually favor them is dismally tiny considering Canada's size in population.[/QUOTE]

You're falling for the myth that culture is an export or an industr, rather than how we live our life.


[QUOTE]That is an old Canadian myth used to better debase its French population and a myth that has been debunked years ago. In francophone countries, Québec's French is not perceived as being "less refined" (except maybe by Canadians such as yourself who do not speak nor understand the French language). There is such a thing as international French and what can be heard on television here is a good example of it. According to the international francophone TV industry, the Québec French in this instance is flawless. In France, the preference goes to a distorted Parisian French. As for street talk, the Québec language is rich with idiosyncrasies and accents dating back to 17th century spoken french. If we were able to travel back to that time, people in France would have less difficulties understanding Québécers than today's Parisian French. Does that make it less 'refined'? Again, an Anglo's view on how to better ridicule something they don't understand or know nothing about[/QUOTE].

In Toronto I have met many Parisian Francophones who immigrated from France in the 1960s. They thumb their noses at the "Quebecois"....anyway, the regional dialects of English in Canada also go back a long time. What's your point?


[QUOTE]Canada has no power to control or dominate anything. Not when it is so loosely tied up in a federation of disparate provinces who have little in common except a flag and a national anthem (both of which were Québec creations by the way).[/QUOTE]


Little in common except fighting in 2 world wars and fending off American imperialism? Oh yeah we also have that English language thing. You are such a laugh. Even in its weakened state, the French are dominated by the English, and don't think we will tolerate so many French prime ministers in the future. This is a blip. English Canada will assert itself and French Canada, a small economy and different linguistically would be dominated by the English. Half the population would leave.

[QUOTE]
I have no reason to worry about Canada's domination. Canadians will have enough work at hand just trying to keep the federation together when Québec becomes independent before they can begin trying and even start thinking about dominating another national entity. Better luck next time with the scarecrow Perturbed. [/QUOTE]


Even now Quebec is dominated, despite their politcal clout the French are quite Anglicized. There is no strong separatist movement in the ROC and there won't be. Nice try. We used to have a more centralized government than America and with respect to power, we will again. I do hope regions stop fighting with each other so much, and that regional differences are made more important than they are in the era of homogenization, but we will have a strong federal government.

If Quebec separated, half its population would flee and the country would become a 3rd world nation like Ukraine.

   

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed]Quebec has French TV, music, etc....but it still speaks a much less refined version of French than English Canadians do English.[/QUOTE]<br /> <b><a href="http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=380&sid=729852">France Foreign Minister Praises French Canadians</a></b><br /> <br /> 2006 - MONTREAL (AP) - The French foreign minister praised Quebec's determination to defend the French language in North America, saying Friday that the region has set an example for all Francophones.<br /> <br /> French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy said French-speaking Canadians were more insistent on using French words for technical terms that are typically spoken in English in France.<br /> <br /> "You are teaching us how to fight for our language and we thank you; we should imitate you," Douste-Blazy said at the home of the French consul-general in Montreal.<br /> <br /> Douste-Blazy, ending a two-day visit to Canada, avoided the delicate issue of Quebec sovereignty. A movement for independence of the French-speaking province was narrowly defeated in 1995, when Quebecois voted against separation by a slim margin in a referendum.<br /> <br /> He nonetheless sympathized with the identity plight of Quebecers.<br /> <br /> "The more globalization is present, the more the Internet makes the world a village, the more we want to belong to a strong identity," he said.<br /> <br /> But Douste-Blazy cautioned that the defense of the culture and language of a minority was not the same as defending nationalism. "These are two completely different things," he said.<br /> <br /> The foreign minister also praised Canada's universal public health system as the reflection of "a society based on solidarity," and contrasted it with the health care situation in the United States.

   

Merci Samuel.

As we are both aware, this is not the first praise Québec receives from France in terms of the quality of language in Québec and not just for technical terminology either.

But hey, some Canadians among us believe that a chance meeting with one or two parisian French who immigrated in the '60's is plenty enough to base one's entire opinion about the subject. And then some wonder why there are separatists in Québec.

   

[QUOTE BY= michou]As we are both aware, this is not the first praise Québec receives from France in terms of the quality of language in Québec and not just for technical terminology either.

But hey, some Canadians among us believe that a chance meeting with one or two parisian French who immigrated in the '60's is plenty enough to base one's entire opinion about the subject. And then some wonder why there are separatists in Québec. [/QUOTE]
Indeed, perturbed's urban legends come from disenchanted French snobs and a lack of knowledge about the quality of Quebec's written and spoken French.

When the French Foreign Minister referred to technical terms, he was mostly referring to Internet terminology used in everyday language. Examples include people in France saying "email" or "software" when we say "courriel" and "logiciel".

   

Separat...ism in culture, in language...

A true story about some of the differences in 2006 between European and Québec spoken french .
I attended a 3 day-15 sessions symposium in Montréal a few months ago. My line of profession was represented by hundreds of participants and sponsors. All but 2 of the 15 sessions were held and presented by Québécers and all exchanges and presentations were done in perfect french. Subjects covered were as diverse as technology, business finance and human management. I’d say 99,4% of attendees were bilingual and many were probably multi-linguals. And yet, not a single word of English were heard over the three days except for those two sessions presented by a Swiss and a Belgian team. « Un chef de service » suddenly became « un soeur-vice manageuuuuure », .«un centre de profit » turned out to be «un profite saintteuuuuuure » and better still, « un superviseur » , believe it or not « un soupère-vazeuuuuuur », pronounced in english but with a french accent. Faut le faire quand même !!! Ça faisait vraiment pitié. So if you love Canada Perturbed and if you love having Québec in it then you should praise Québec french, not say it isn't refined enough for a Canadian. !!!!!!!!!

   

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= michou]As we are both aware, this is not the first praise Québec receives from France in terms of the quality of language in Québec and not just for technical terminology either.

But hey, some Canadians among us believe that a chance meeting with one or two parisian French who immigrated in the '60's is plenty enough to base one's entire opinion about the subject. And then some wonder why there are separatists in Québec. [/QUOTE]
Indeed, perturbed's urban legends come from disenchanted French snobs and a lack of knowledge about the quality of Quebec's written and spoken French.

When the French Foreign Minister referred to technical terms, he was mostly referring to Internet terminology used in everyday language. Examples include people in France saying "email" or "software" when we say "courriel" and "logiciel".[/QUOTE]


I never said I thought it was not refined enough to stay in Canada.

Naturally the French foreign minister would turn praise for the Quebecois into a criticism of America--one of the nations that helped liberate them in World War II.

He also pointed out in pro-minority fashion that protecting French in Canada was a struggle to preserve a minority's language and culture--rather than the fact that many simply want a separate country period and that French is in reality much safer from assimilation than it was 45 years ago. There have been massive new ethnic groups imported but they at least are forced to speak French.

   

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed]He also pointed out in pro-minority fashion that protecting French in Canada was a struggle to preserve a minority's language and culture--rather than the fact that many simply want a separate country period and that French is in reality much safer from assimilation than it was 45 years ago.[/QUOTE]<br /> And Canada has absolutely no credit to take for that, none, nada, zilch. The labour, sweat and tears poured into protecting Quebec's culture to what it is today shouldn't of been necessary were it not for it being under constant assault from Canada and Canadians.<BR><BR><br /> [QUOTE BY= Perturbed]There have been massive new ethnic groups imported but they at least are forced to speak French.[/QUOTE]<br /> They're not forced. They can move their ass to Ontario where putting up signs in foreign languages only and not speaking a word of English is widely accepted.<BR>

   

[QUOTE]And Canada has absolutely no credit to take for that, none, nada, zilch. The labour, sweat and tears poured into protecting Quebec's culture to what it is today shouldn't of been necessary were it not for it being under constant assault from Canada and Canadians.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> They were not under assault from average Canadians. Thye were under assault from a western liberal ruling class--many of them French Canadians themselves like Pierre Trudeau and Jean Chretien.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]They're not forced. They can move their ass to Ontario where putting up signs in foreign languages only and not speaking a word of English is widely accepted.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> They are forced to learn French if they want to be welcome. You know what I mean.<br /> <br /> It is also accurate to say that immigration is forced on Quebec. The birth rate is very low in Quebec but still immigration is not meeded at this point. It is being forced on Quebec due to the ideology of global movement of people.

   

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE]And Canada has absolutely no credit to take for that, none, nada, zilch. The labour, sweat and tears poured into protecting Quebec's culture to what it is today shouldn't of been necessary were it not for it being under c Pom Canada and Canadians.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> They were not under assault from average Canadians. Thye were under assault from a western liberal ruling class--many of them French Canadians themselves like Pierre Trudeau and Jean Chretien.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> French speaking Canadians were assaulted way before Trudeau and Chrétien. One just has to recall the forced closing of french schools in western provinces back in the 1800's. Francophones used to make up more than half of the population there and today, they are represented by a measly 4 %. Before the quiet revolution, with few exceptions to the rule, it was mostly a class system between the French and English which ruled everyone's rank and place in Québec society. The French were forced to stay within the lower ranks of the social ladder. It had nothing to do with Trudeau or Chrétien. Trudeau later implemented multiculturalism so Canadian francophones could be considered at par with any other 'foreign' immigrant population to Canada. That his policy would turn around and eventually bite Canadians and their ill-defined cultural society was not anticipated back in the seventies but there you go. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]They <i> (immigrants)</i>are forced to learn French if they want to be welcome. You know what I mean.[/QUOTE]<br /> Italic by michou. Samuel may know what you are talking about but I don't. If you mean forced to enroll in the French schooling system, then I understand. As far as I know, Canada does not have parallel school systems for Chinese, Indian or South Americans immigrants in their language of origin either. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]It is also accurate to say that immigration is forced on Quebec. The birth rate is very low in Quebec but still immigration is not meeded at this point. It is being forced on Quebec due to the ideology of global movement of people.[/QUOTE]<br /> What is this comment all about ? Could you elaborate. This is the first I hear of forced immigration on Québec. Forced immigration rules that do not agree with Québec society is one thing, and that is why Québec has fought and won a say in the matter but forced immigration populations on Québec ? Please elaborate on the matter.

   

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