Do you consider this a hate crime?
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Delwin @ Sun May 06, 2007 8:16 pm
I think you answered your own question Tricks. There are dietary guidelines is Catholicism which I know my grandmother used to follow, only fish on Fridays, fasting during lent, etc., but the difference is these are obscure traditions which are rarely practiced now and few people would even know what you meant if you used a steak as a bookmark and dropped it in front of a Catholic church on a Friday. With Muslim's, pork is a meat which completely prohibited. The comment regarding their prophet being a pedophile and the other slur which was omitted (probably too vulgar), are enough on their own to demonstrate an intent to incite hatred. Moreover, in Islam, the actual book from which the Koran is read is considered sacred. Most Muslims keep there Koran in a safe place, or on display and destroying it is considered an act against Allah:
Here is a link to how the major religions differ as it pertains to the treatment of their respective holy books:
http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/sections/ ... 531389.php
Tricks @ Sun May 06, 2007 8:26 pm
Delwin Delwin:
but the difference is these are obscure traditions which are rarely practiced now and few people would even know what you meant if you used a steak as a bookmark and dropped it in front of a Catholic church on a Friday.
Really? I know very few religious people. My aunt is catholic, and she follows that. That's the only reason I know. $1:
With Muslim's, pork is a meat which completely prohibited.
It is for the Jewish religion too isn't it? So do the same thing with a Torah. Forget my example. Clearly it isn't good enough. (For some unknown reason) $1:
The comment regarding their prophet being a pedophile and the other slur which was omitted (probably too vulgar), are enough on their own to demonstrate an intent to incite hatred.
Sure, that can be a hate crime. But putting bacon in a freakin book isn't a god damned hate crime. $1:
Moreover, in Islam, the actual book from which the Koran is read is considered sacred.
So is the Bible. And the Torah. $1:
Most Muslims keep there Koran in a safe place, or on display and destroying it is considered an act against Allah:
So if a Catholic destroys a bible they are not committing sin against God? 
Don't make me laugh.
Blue_Nose @ Sun May 06, 2007 8:28 pm
"Hate crime" is a purely legal term - asking someone whether they "feel" a certain act is a "hate crime" is pretty much pointless.
With that said, one should be considering the legal definition of "hate crime" to make such a decision, not considering whether they find it "really, really offensive".
Tricks @ Sun May 06, 2007 8:43 pm
lily lily:
Tricks Tricks:
Delwin Delwin:
but the difference is these are obscure traditions which are rarely practiced now and few people would even know what you meant if you used a steak as a bookmark and dropped it in front of a Catholic church on a Friday.
Really? I know very few religious people. My aunt is catholic, and she follows that. That's the only reason I know. $1:
With Muslim's, pork is a meat which completely prohibited.
It is for the Jewish religion too isn't it? So do the same thing with a Torah. Forget my example. Clearly it isn't good enough. (For some unknown reason) $1:
The comment regarding their prophet being a pedophile and the other slur which was omitted (probably too vulgar), are enough on their own to demonstrate an intent to incite hatred.
Sure, that can be a hate crime. But putting bacon in a freakin book isn't a god damned hate crime. $1:
Moreover, in Islam, the actual book from which the Koran is read is considered sacred.
So is the Bible. And the Torah. $1:
Most Muslims keep there Koran in a safe place, or on display and destroying it is considered an act against Allah:
So if a Catholic destroys a bible they are not committing sin against God? Don't make me laugh. You've admitted you know little to nothing about Catholicism, other than what your aunt does, so laugh all you want... it doesn't really mean a thing.
Blue_Nose @ Sun May 06, 2007 9:17 pm
Again, whether or not one group finds an act offensive doesn't constitute a hate crime - that Muslims may be more offended by pork than Catholics of steak on Good Friday doesn't make a lick of difference.
Criminal Code of Canada Criminal Code of Canada:
Section 318: Hate Propaganda
(1) Every one who advocates or promotes genocide is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.
Definition of "genocide"
(2) In this section, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part any identifiable group, namely,
(a) killing members of the group; or
(b) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction.
Consent (3) No proceeding for an offence under this section shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.
Definition of "identifiable group"
(4) In this section, "identifiable group" means any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.
Section 319
(1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Wilful promotion of hatred
(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Defences
(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, he expressed or attempted to establish by argument an opinion on a religious subject;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.
Forfeiture
(4) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 318 or subsection (1) or (2) of this section, anything by means of or in relation to which the offence was committed, on such conviction, may, in addition to any other punishment imposed, be ordered by the presiding provincial court judge or judge to be forfeited to Her Majesty in right of the province in which that person is convicted, for disposal as the Attorney General may direct.
Exemption from seizure of communication facilities
(5) Subsections 199(6) and (7) apply with such modifications as the circumstances require to section 318 or subsection (1) or (2) of this section.
Consent (6) No proceeding for an offence under subsection (2) shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.
(7) In this section,
"communicating" includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means;
"identifiable group" has the same meaning as in section 318;
"public place" includes any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation, express or implied;
"statements" includes words spoken or written or recorded electronically or electro-magnetically or otherwise, and gestures, signs or other visible representations.
Subsection 718.2
A court that imposes a sentence shall also take into consideration the following principles:
(a) a sentence should be increased or reduced to account for any relevant aggravating or mitigating circumstances relating to the offence or the offender, and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing,
(i) evidence that the offence was motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on race, national or ethnic origin, language, colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, or any other similar factor,
(ii) evidence that the offender, in committing the offence, abused the offender's spouse or common-law partner or child,
(iii) evidence that the offender, in committing the offence, abused a position of trust or authority in relation to the victim,
(iv) evidence that the offence was committed for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a criminal organization, or
(v) evidence that the offence was a terrorism offence
shall be deemed to be aggravating circumstances;
(b) a sentence should be similar to sentences imposed on similar offenders for similar offences committed in similar circumstances;
(c) where consecutive sentences are imposed, the combined sentence should not be unduly long or harsh;
(d) an offender should not be deprived of liberty, if less restrictive sanctions may be appropriate in the circumstances; and
(e) all available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances should be considered for all offenders, with particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders.
(1) Every one who advocates or promotes genocide is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.
Definition of "genocide"
(2) In this section, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part any identifiable group, namely,
(a) killing members of the group; or
(b) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction.
Consent (3) No proceeding for an offence under this section shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.
Definition of "identifiable group"
(4) In this section, "identifiable group" means any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.
Section 319
(1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Wilful promotion of hatred
(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Defences
(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, he expressed or attempted to establish by argument an opinion on a religious subject;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.
Forfeiture
(4) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 318 or subsection (1) or (2) of this section, anything by means of or in relation to which the offence was committed, on such conviction, may, in addition to any other punishment imposed, be ordered by the presiding provincial court judge or judge to be forfeited to Her Majesty in right of the province in which that person is convicted, for disposal as the Attorney General may direct.
Exemption from seizure of communication facilities
(5) Subsections 199(6) and (7) apply with such modifications as the circumstances require to section 318 or subsection (1) or (2) of this section.
Consent (6) No proceeding for an offence under subsection (2) shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.
(7) In this section,
"communicating" includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means;
"identifiable group" has the same meaning as in section 318;
"public place" includes any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation, express or implied;
"statements" includes words spoken or written or recorded electronically or electro-magnetically or otherwise, and gestures, signs or other visible representations.
Subsection 718.2
A court that imposes a sentence shall also take into consideration the following principles:
(a) a sentence should be increased or reduced to account for any relevant aggravating or mitigating circumstances relating to the offence or the offender, and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing,
(i) evidence that the offence was motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on race, national or ethnic origin, language, colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, or any other similar factor,
(ii) evidence that the offender, in committing the offence, abused the offender's spouse or common-law partner or child,
(iii) evidence that the offender, in committing the offence, abused a position of trust or authority in relation to the victim,
(iv) evidence that the offence was committed for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a criminal organization, or
(v) evidence that the offence was a terrorism offence
shall be deemed to be aggravating circumstances;
(b) a sentence should be similar to sentences imposed on similar offenders for similar offences committed in similar circumstances;
(c) where consecutive sentences are imposed, the combined sentence should not be unduly long or harsh;
(d) an offender should not be deprived of liberty, if less restrictive sanctions may be appropriate in the circumstances; and
(e) all available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances should be considered for all offenders, with particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders.
Banff @ Sun May 06, 2007 9:21 pm
lily lily:
$1:
Flip side. You're not supposed to eat meat on easter Monday or Sunday if you are a Christian right?
Wrong.
I think he might be talking about fasting . I'm more up to date with jewish times and Kosher ...good thing, I would have never been able to deal with cholesterol otherwise, ...unless I ate tree bark , Flax and Cheerios .
Banff @ Sun May 06, 2007 9:26 pm
lily lily:
Even if he were, fasting is not a requirement.
My friend is Catholic, and she doesn't fast.
My friend is Catholic, and she doesn't fast.
Is she a Christian or Catholic
icekarma2752 @ Mon May 07, 2007 12:18 am
lily lily:
$1:
uh..hello??? moslems arent welcome or liked..except by other moslems
Who retired and appointed you spokesmodel?
hey...theres no law that says i have to like them...and theres no law that says they have to like me..the world would be a much better place without them
Brenda @ Mon May 07, 2007 12:56 am
icekarma2752 icekarma2752:
lily lily:
$1:
uh..hello??? moslems arent welcome or liked..except by other moslems
Who retired and appointed you spokesmodel?
hey...theres no law that says i have to like them...and theres no law that says they have to like me..the world would be a much better place without them
Why? Would you care to explain without treating all muslims alike?
I wonder were "freedom of religion" went here... If you think the world will be better off without all muslims, why not be better off without all religions? Or all non-believers?
hwacker @ Mon May 07, 2007 1:37 am
Brenda Brenda:
icekarma2752 icekarma2752:
lily lily:
$1:
uh..hello??? moslems arent welcome or liked..except by other moslems
Who retired and appointed you spokesmodel?
hey...theres no law that says i have to like them...and theres no law that says they have to like me..the world would be a much better place without them
Why? Would you care to explain without treating all muslims alike?
I wonder were "freedom of religion" went here... If you think the world will be better off without all muslims, why not be better off without all religions? Or all non-believers?
NA everything was fine over here till the muzzies started this crap. When was the last time you saw a muslim on TV going off on the crazies in the middle east ?
Never.
Brenda @ Mon May 07, 2007 1:59 am
hwacker hwacker:
Brenda Brenda:
icekarma2752 icekarma2752:
lily lily:
$1:
uh..hello??? moslems arent welcome or liked..except by other moslems
Who retired and appointed you spokesmodel?
hey...theres no law that says i have to like them...and theres no law that says they have to like me..the world would be a much better place without them
Why? Would you care to explain without treating all muslims alike?
I wonder were "freedom of religion" went here... If you think the world will be better off without all muslims, why not be better off without all religions? Or all non-believers?
NA everything was fine over here till the muzzies started this crap. When was the last time you saw a muslim on TV going off on the crazies in the middle east ?
Never.
And when was the last time you talked about it with them in real life? I did yesterday. You? Never?
Come on, you are all treating them all alike. I find the Pope a scary guy... Does that mean all Catholics should die? Get real, and talk to normal muslims. You will find out they are just people like you and me. But, yeah, you're right, you won't see them on TV. It's no news, right?
icekarma2752 @ Mon May 07, 2007 4:07 am
Brenda Brenda:
hwacker hwacker:
Brenda Brenda:
icekarma2752 icekarma2752:
lily lily:
$1:
uh..hello??? moslems arent welcome or liked..except by other moslems
Who retired and appointed you spokesmodel?
hey...theres no law that says i have to like them...and theres no law that says they have to like me..the world would be a much better place without them
Why? Would you care to explain without treating all muslims alike?
I wonder were "freedom of religion" went here... If you think the world will be better off without all muslims, why not be better off without all religions? Or all non-believers?
NA everything was fine over here till the muzzies started this crap. When was the last time you saw a muslim on TV going off on the crazies in the middle east ?
Never.
And when was the last time you talked about it with them in real life? I did yesterday. You? Never?
Come on, you are all treating them all alike. I find the Pope a scary guy... Does that mean all Catholics should die? Get real, and talk to normal muslims. You will find out they are just people like you and me. But, yeah, you're right, you won't see them on TV. It's no news, right?
cmon Brenda..you seem nice enough..how much more grief does islam have to inflict upon the international community before you see them as the murderous savages they really are??
Brenda @ Mon May 07, 2007 4:24 am
icekarma2752 icekarma2752:
Brenda Brenda:
hwacker hwacker:
Brenda Brenda:
icekarma2752 icekarma2752:
lily lily:
$1:
uh..hello??? moslems arent welcome or liked..except by other moslems
Who retired and appointed you spokesmodel?
hey...theres no law that says i have to like them...and theres no law that says they have to like me..the world would be a much better place without them
Why? Would you care to explain without treating all muslims alike?
I wonder were "freedom of religion" went here... If you think the world will be better off without all muslims, why not be better off without all religions? Or all non-believers?
NA everything was fine over here till the muzzies started this crap. When was the last time you saw a muslim on TV going off on the crazies in the middle east ?
Never.
And when was the last time you talked about it with them in real life? I did yesterday. You? Never?
Come on, you are all treating them all alike. I find the Pope a scary guy... Does that mean all Catholics should die? Get real, and talk to normal muslims. You will find out they are just people like you and me. But, yeah, you're right, you won't see them on TV. It's no news, right?
cmon Brenda..you seem nice enough..how much more grief does islam have to inflict upon the international community before you see them as the murderous savages they really are??
Haven't the Catholics done the same in the past?
I am not a fan of any religion, but to say "all muslims are murderers" is just too much. It is not about "all muslims", it is about extremists. These are the guys you have to watch out for. Not only muslim extremists but also left-exstremists, right-extremists, catholic-extremists, white extremists, black extremist, and whatever extremists you can think of.
Just my $ 0.02
kaetz @ Mon May 07, 2007 5:42 am
Brenda Brenda:
icekarma2752 icekarma2752:
Brenda Brenda:
hwacker hwacker:
Brenda Brenda:
icekarma2752 icekarma2752:
lily lily:
$1:
uh..hello??? moslems arent welcome or liked..except by other moslems
Who retired and appointed you spokesmodel?
hey...theres no law that says i have to like them...and theres no law that says they have to like me..the world would be a much better place without them
Why? Would you care to explain without treating all muslims alike?
I wonder were "freedom of religion" went here... If you think the world will be better off without all muslims, why not be better off without all religions? Or all non-believers?
NA everything was fine over here till the muzzies started this crap. When was the last time you saw a muslim on TV going off on the crazies in the middle east ?
Never.
And when was the last time you talked about it with them in real life? I did yesterday. You? Never?
Come on, you are all treating them all alike. I find the Pope a scary guy... Does that mean all Catholics should die? Get real, and talk to normal muslims. You will find out they are just people like you and me. But, yeah, you're right, you won't see them on TV. It's no news, right?
cmon Brenda..you seem nice enough..how much more grief does islam have to inflict upon the international community before you see them as the murderous savages they really are??
Haven't the Catholics done the same in the past?
I am not a fan of any religion, but to say "all muslims are murderers" is just too much. It is not about "all muslims", it is about extremists. These are the guys you have to watch out for. Not only muslim extremists but also left-exstremists, right-extremists, catholic-extremists, white extremists, black extremist, and whatever extremists you can think of.
Just my $ 0.02
don't try it too hard, Bren! There are people who are too happy with their own opinion to wish to understand what you're trying to explain.
in the end of all, they have the right for it, don't they?
icekarma2752 @ Mon May 07, 2007 5:52 am
Brenda Brenda:
icekarma2752 icekarma2752:
Brenda Brenda:
hwacker hwacker:
Brenda Brenda:
icekarma2752 icekarma2752:
lily lily:
$1:
uh..hello??? moslems arent welcome or liked..except by other moslems
Who retired and appointed you spokesmodel?
hey...theres no law that says i have to like them...and theres no law that says they have to like me..the world would be a much better place without them
Why? Would you care to explain without treating all muslims alike?
I wonder were "freedom of religion" went here... If you think the world will be better off without all muslims, why not be better off without all religions? Or all non-believers?
NA everything was fine over here till the muzzies started this crap. When was the last time you saw a muslim on TV going off on the crazies in the middle east ?
Never.
And when was the last time you talked about it with them in real life? I did yesterday. You? Never?
Come on, you are all treating them all alike. I find the Pope a scary guy... Does that mean all Catholics should die? Get real, and talk to normal muslims. You will find out they are just people like you and me. But, yeah, you're right, you won't see them on TV. It's no news, right?
cmon Brenda..you seem nice enough..how much more grief does islam have to inflict upon the international community before you see them as the murderous savages they really are??
Haven't the Catholics done the same in the past?
I am not a fan of any religion, but to say "all muslims are murderers" is just too much. It is not about "all muslims", it is about extremists. These are the guys you have to watch out for. Not only muslim extremists but also left-exstremists, right-extremists, catholic-extremists, white extremists, black extremist, and whatever extremists you can think of.
Just my $ 0.02
yes Brenda the catholic church has big-time skeletons in their closets..passages from deuteronomy were used to conduct the witch-hunts..i cant remember the exact scripture nor is it convenient for me to look it up at this time but it basically gave authorization to kill anyone who wasnt a believer in god(cant use christ since this is the old testament but religion(like always was used as the stooges for the "powers at hand"..it really wasnt about eliminating the unholy but removing the "undesirables"(elderly ppl and those who didnt conform with society so charity couldnt be distributed to them as well as seizing their property and hey it gets even worse..these "undesirables" actually had to pay the priests for their torture sessions(pretty whacked huh?)..but the nice part about the bible is christ gave authorization to disregard the old testament even though it wasnt done immediately giving rise to the reformation movement and new sects of christianity.islam is an entirely different story..9:5 of the koran specifies seek out the mushikeer(non-moslems) where ever you may find them and kill them..you dont have that "gray area" as you do in the bible.so when you speak of moderate moslems i have no choice but to wonder where would they stand if confronted by the extremist moslems and asked point blank, "have you summitted to allah?"its also interesting to note how any non-islamic country that borders an islamic country becomes the most ferocious enemies imaginable.and last and far from least..being the fine woman you are should take great offense in the fact that islam regards women as a lesser person than a man.islamic countries routinely cut off the clits of women to deprive them of the joy of sex.in iran if a woman..not a man is convicted of adultery shes buried up to her neck and pelted with boulders until dead..kind of twisted you have this religion that regards women as inferior yet the men lack the control to deal with their own sexual urges..and believe me..ive tried to have it out in a peaceful manner with our resident moslem(abbas) and confronted him with the incidents where the pope did nothing wrong at all but give a factual account of the history of islam resulting in an elderly italian nun getting murdered in retaliation as well as the danish cartoonist who depicted mohhamed as a bomb-carrying terrorist resulting in the islamic community demanding his head cut off..abbas's response...why does the west do this when it knows how much it offends us??..so my summation: ALL MOSLEMS FUCK RIGHT OFF!!!
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