American Email...
Guest @ Sat Jun 21, 2003 6:06 pm
matrix matrix:
Um... wondering, what is hte academy scandal? I served in the CAnadian armed forces Air element as an officer (Aerospace Control - Air Weapons Controller)... what did you do in the US air force?
And it is true that officers dont get punished as harshly but imagine the damage it will do to morale if an officer is punished harshly by there own government? An Officer is suppose to hold a leadership position.
When your in the air, it is really really tough to always make the correct desision. I am not a Jet figher pilot or anything, but I sure do have my Private Pilots Liesence (With Night rating), and even the putter that I fly cannot be flown flawlessly.
So imagine flying 20 times faster, with G forces pushing at you and at night with what you believe is someone shooting at you. Obviously you will need some help, that includes some quick action from the AWACs, and if they do not give info quick enough, then the pilots better damn well make there own decision and not get killed. Thats what the Top Gun pilot did, and it turned into a mistake. Now his career is ruined.
I believe the AWAC team or someone else should also take some of the responsibilty. How about the Canadian team that took part in the exercise, perhaps lack of communication may have been one of many mistakes made when four soldiers died.
So I guess nonrev is right when he says "we will never know"
And it is true that officers dont get punished as harshly but imagine the damage it will do to morale if an officer is punished harshly by there own government? An Officer is suppose to hold a leadership position.
When your in the air, it is really really tough to always make the correct desision. I am not a Jet figher pilot or anything, but I sure do have my Private Pilots Liesence (With Night rating), and even the putter that I fly cannot be flown flawlessly.
So imagine flying 20 times faster, with G forces pushing at you and at night with what you believe is someone shooting at you. Obviously you will need some help, that includes some quick action from the AWACs, and if they do not give info quick enough, then the pilots better damn well make there own decision and not get killed. Thats what the Top Gun pilot did, and it turned into a mistake. Now his career is ruined.
I believe the AWAC team or someone else should also take some of the responsibilty. How about the Canadian team that took part in the exercise, perhaps lack of communication may have been one of many mistakes made when four soldiers died.
So I guess nonrev is right when he says "we will never know"
I am currently in the Air Force, having spent 16 years as as Air Craft Control And Warning Radar Maintenance Technician. Nowadays its called GTACS. Mobile Tactical Surveillance and Control radar TPS-43/TPS-75. Before that I spent 6 years in the US Army mechanized infantry!!
I imagine a person no matter the rank has the right to be punished for his actions. As a former officer you know that with responsibility and leader ship comes priveledge and also accontability. If you think punishing a Capt. the same as you would punish a Sgt. who accidentally shoots someone because he thought he was being shot at would destroy morale, think of what not doing it would do to the lower ranks who have to follow these officers. Rank has its priviledge but, it also has its responsibility..Not to mention he gets paid alot more.
Kurt
Guest @ Sat Jun 21, 2003 6:48 pm
Oh, The Academy (Air Force) in Colorado has been beset by scandal. It seems like over the years there have been numerous sexual assaults with no real response from the leadership. The former leaders were "reassigned" and an Air Force inquiry has found that there is no one to blame. ??????? No one to blame for Sexual assault? One of the findings was that the leadership did not have time to address the situation because they were busy with other job related issues. If one of my troops were to tell me they were sexually harrassed and I did nothing I would be hung out to dry by my private manly parts. The funny thing is that now many of the officers that were in the Air Force acadamy when this happened are now Squadron, Group and Wing Commanders. The same men that would hand me my jewels if I were to behave in this heinous manner. 
Isn't it ironic...don't you think. 
Congress has an inquiry going right now.
I was brought up to believe that my job as a leader is to take care of my men (and women once I joined the Air Force) and I am convinced that that is my job as a Non-Commisioned Officer.
RoyalHighlander @ Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:25 pm
Any one remember the Tail Hook scandal??
nonrev @ Sat Jun 21, 2003 11:13 pm
RoyalHighlander RoyalHighlander:
Any one remember the Tail Hook scandal??
Yep; late '80-s, wasnt it? Navy flyers in a fancy hotel, with their own version of the gauntlet line for the women?
Never heard what became of it all though.....
RoyalHighlander @ Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:26 am
nonrev nonrev:
RoyalHighlander RoyalHighlander:
Any one remember the Tail Hook scandal??
Yep; late '80-s, wasnt it? Navy flyers in a fancy hotel, with their own version of the gauntlet line for the women?
Never heard what became of it all though.....
Quite a few didnt graduate and afew killed thier carreer on the spot..
matrix @ Sun Jun 22, 2003 10:17 am
Well, im not saying the mistake the pilots made should be made unpunishable, its just a point that I brought up... however OFficers should be punished just as much to be made an example for any future pilots.
From what I understand of the US military in geneneral, they tend to treat Officers and NCO's more equally. I find in Canada, we follow somewhat of a British method in terms of frat and all that. For example, in Trenton and many bases in Canada, they always have an officers mess and a NCO's mess, kinda like dividing Officers and NCO;s (NCM's) to prevent them from associating with each other or something.
And even some of the bars are seperated, like they have bars for the NCO's and bars for Officers so when they relax, they are not together.
However, in the US, when I stayed at the US Marine Corp base in Washington and visited the Pentagon in Virginia, the people told us that in "No Salute" zones, officers and NCO's alike can mingle and drink together and all that and rank means nothing. Is that true in the US Air Force? I personally think it is much much better for Morale the US way because NCO's earn a respect for the officers that they cant if they are constantly seperated like in Canada.
In the US,
RoyalHighlander @ Sun Jun 22, 2003 12:01 pm
Myself I was glad we had our own messes, We already know our officers were good folks, but we didnt need to sit and drink with them to get along good with them. Also The devided messes was good in that you could relax and let your hair down with your peers...
Guest @ Sun Jun 22, 2003 1:05 pm
On most posts and bases, there is an Enlisted club and an officer club. There are times and functions where the ranks mingle but rest assured you are what your rank is.
When i was in the infantry there were many times that we as a platoon partied together but I think that is something that happens more in the Combat arms and tactical units.
Kurt
matrix @ Sun Jun 22, 2003 2:30 pm
Ah, okay, so the "no salute" zones arent really as big a thing as I thought, probably just the term used by the Pentagon staff or something.
I personally was never an Non commissioned Member, I joined hte forces through the Royal Military College of Canada (Military University - Kingston\Cornwall) so I went right into the forces as a 2nd Lieutenant. However, when I was in the cadet system, I was a "so called" cadet NCO, and they divide up the Cadets, NCOs and Officers pretty clearly and the CIC wannabe reserve officers were pretty anal about even having a buddy buddy conversation with anyone of lower rank. (dont get me wrong, the CIC do good work considering they are paid very very minimal and are practically volunteers)
I guess I can see how seperation of officers and NCM's can be beneficial to both parties. But working in Air Weapons Control, theres usually an Officer doing one thing and an NCO doing another and it is more like a regular office environment than anything, so I was pretty good friends with most of the NCOs working with me. I even trained with a few of the NCO's in Cornwall NAV Canada - CF
I didnt like the fact that they couldnt go to the same bars as I did unless I went off base because they werent officers. We pretty much spent the same time in the forces and we were the same age and I was the only new officer coming in because the rest of the people I went in with were NCOs, so it was a bit lonely with out them.
RoyalHighlander @ Sun Jun 22, 2003 5:42 pm
There arent that many bars in Cornawall to start with, only one titty bar last time i was home.. I used to live about a mile down the rd from Nav Canada site.. and many a weekend a few of the students there got thier asses handed to them in town..lol
matrix @ Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:04 pm
wow...what happened? were they the CF students or the regular students?
RoyalHighlander @ Sun Jun 22, 2003 10:04 pm
They were wanna be tough guys that came into the bars in groups that thought there were it but found out different a few times. My brother used to have that titty bar on Pitt st next to the Ford dealer just up from the cop shop. Remember the Northway Hotel?? I used to hang at the place next to the paper mill.. across from the bus garage... I used to live across from the La MAison Tavern on Montreal Rd and Belmont st just up from the St Lawrence College
matrix @ Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:19 am
To be honest, I didnt go to too many bars off the NAV Canada campus. I only went like once a year for a party they use to have. During the year I did my regular degree program and in the summer I went to NAV Can, and they had hte party thing going. However, I do remember the paper mill and I have recollections of LA Maison Tavern. I personally liked Cornwall, it was a nice small town, however, like I said, I spent most of my time in Kingston, except after my degree. It was very intense study for the CF students so we were like hte geeks at NAV Can, even tho most of the civilian people looked down on us cuz we had "no intelligence seeing as we were in the military and all." I can probably see some of them civy people being soooo arogant that they get there asses kicked. Scary thought knowing that these are the people bring us to a "safe" landing.
If I ever get a chance in the future, Id love to go back to Cornwall to actually have time to appreciate whats good about it. Kingston was a blast, it was a university town, lots of bars to accomodate us.
RoyalHighlander @ Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:18 am
matrix matrix:
, even tho most of the civilian people looked down on us cuz we had "no intelligence seeing as we were in the military and all." I can probably see some of them civy people being soooo arogant that they get there asses kicked. Scary thought knowing that these are the people bring us to a "safe" landing.
Wasnt any of the military folks but them others there going for the ATC training..
matrix @ Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:34 am
I bet they probably really deserved what was handed to them.