Canada Kicks Ass
Petition to reinstate the RCAF and RCN

REPLY

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DerbyX @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:03 pm

Tman1 Tman1:
DerbyX DerbyX:
It deal with the Battlestar Pegasus from the onset of the cylon attack until it meets up with the Galactica.

It has all the previous actors from the pegasus episodes of BSG in their original roles.

I must admit I was a little put off with the 3rd season of BSG (didn't seem the same) and haven't caught up since. I recall the fourth season will be the last according to Ron Moore. Good epic series need an end. Indeed it is about the Pegasus but might have flashbacks of the original Cylons and those sparkly heads.


Correct. Battlestar Pegasus will whet the appetite for the fourth and final season. The fourth season will be designed to garner support for the real project which will be the new spinoff dealing with adama growing up as a rook pilot in the 1st cylon war. This has already been making the forum rounds.

It will be amazing.

   



EyeBrock @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:13 pm

DerbyX DerbyX:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
DerbyX DerbyX:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Clogeroo Clogeroo:
$1:

If the government ever officially uses the terms "Canadian Air Force" and "Canadian Navy", they are obligated to attach "Royal" to them.


Fair enough they might as well go back to their old names again. But how come it is not the Royal Maritime Command then?


"Commands" are usually large military components within a "force" therefore don't rate a "Royal", much like individual unit's such as DART etc don't rate the same.

Most Commonwealth nations use commands within a Force. RAF had Strike Command, Training Command, Support Command within the actual Air Force.

When the RCN and RCAF went to Maritime and Air Commands they were basically downgraded as independant 'Forces'.


Can you translate a bit for me.

Weren't the RCF & RCAF already maritime & air commands?

Sorry to sound dense but are we simply speaking in terms of total strength dictating calling the navy RCN (ditto RCAF)?


No the RCN was actually a 'navy' and the RCAF was an actual 'airforce'. "Commands" are lesser in military stature and make up parts of a "force". When these designations were changed the 'forces' were downgraded. It's like making a 'Division' a Regiment. Or a Squadron a Flight. Means nothing to those outside the military but it sure meant a lot to those in it!


I'm still a little foggy. If our unit (navy - airforce -army) strength is at a certain level then it gets a certain designation right?

We aren't calling a battalion a regiment right?

In terms of our airforce we term each unit per base a "wing".

I'm not trying to be dumb (though doing a good job) just trying to understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that we should change currenty unit terminolgy or that we need to boost numbers in order to support calling a ""division" a "division" (for example)?


Well, you are getting a grasp of it!

The actually terms "navy" and "airforce" are not size relative Mr Hellyer chose to use a term normally used to designate a part of a navy or airforce to rename them in order to remove that pesky "royal" term. Hellyer had total disdain for any heritage or inherent esprit-de-corps (his book "Damn the torpedoes" is very revealing about the whole issue of intergration).

The bases are now "Wings" which is an old RAF term for a air unit of lesser strength than a "group" but bigger than a "squadron". For example CFB Trenton has several squadrons within 8 Wing.

There is no magic size when a Command becomes a Force, or a Division becomes a Corps but these terms usually reflect the rank of the CO.

Some Regiments can actually be made up of a single battallion but they keep it as a Regt because of history, esprit-de-corps etc.
Disbanding units because of size or any other issues is a very emotional one to it's serving and former members. Something that was not taken into account when the Airborne Regt was disbanded, a matter that smarts as much to the Army (or should I say "Mobile Command", I kid you not!) as much as losing the 'royal' prefix pissed the Air and Naval forces off.

The military is a culture that is full of contradictions. Air Command purporting to be an 'airforce' is just one of the many!

Clear as mud eh?

   



WBenson @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:23 pm

Tman1 Tman1:
WBenson WBenson:
She is a foreign monarch only when acting as the Queen of a foreign country. When dealing with Canada she is the Queen of Canada. You either are or you aren't, there's no such thing as "in name only." I guess the Constitution Act is a constitution in name only, too.

When you see the Queen of Canada actually exert some power over this country, changing laws (I might add she can't even do in her own country), get back to me with the "no such thing as in name only" context thank you.

The Constitution Act is what organizes Canada and governs it in a set state of rules, the Queen doesn't.


The very first office described in the Constitution Act, 1867, is that of the monarch. "In name only" conveys that we don't actually have a Queen, we just tell ourselves we do, and that eventually if you dig into the office, you'll just find a Wizard of Oz-esque man behind a curtain. The Constitution Act is a set of rules that set up how Canada is governed. There is nothing fictional in it, and nothing "in name only." Limited powers do not reduce reality.

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
Does the queen have a passport?


No, since the power to grant passports flows from her (exercised by the government, of course). It's the same with drivers licenses.

   



DerbyX @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:29 pm

EyeBrock EyeBrock:
DerbyX DerbyX:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
DerbyX DerbyX:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Clogeroo Clogeroo:
$1:

If the government ever officially uses the terms "Canadian Air Force" and "Canadian Navy", they are obligated to attach "Royal" to them.


Fair enough they might as well go back to their old names again. But how come it is not the Royal Maritime Command then?


"Commands" are usually large military components within a "force" therefore don't rate a "Royal", much like individual unit's such as DART etc don't rate the same.

Most Commonwealth nations use commands within a Force. RAF had Strike Command, Training Command, Support Command within the actual Air Force.

When the RCN and RCAF went to Maritime and Air Commands they were basically downgraded as independant 'Forces'.


Can you translate a bit for me.

Weren't the RCF & RCAF already maritime & air commands?

Sorry to sound dense but are we simply speaking in terms of total strength dictating calling the navy RCN (ditto RCAF)?


No the RCN was actually a 'navy' and the RCAF was an actual 'airforce'. "Commands" are lesser in military stature and make up parts of a "force". When these designations were changed the 'forces' were downgraded. It's like making a 'Division' a Regiment. Or a Squadron a Flight. Means nothing to those outside the military but it sure meant a lot to those in it!


I'm still a little foggy. If our unit (navy - airforce -army) strength is at a certain level then it gets a certain designation right?

We aren't calling a battalion a regiment right?

In terms of our airforce we term each unit per base a "wing".

I'm not trying to be dumb (though doing a good job) just trying to understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that we should change currenty unit terminolgy or that we need to boost numbers in order to support calling a ""division" a "division" (for example)?


Well, you are getting a grasp of it!

The actually terms "navy" and "airforce" are not size relative Mr Hellyer chose to use a term normally used to designate a part of a navy or airforce to rename them in order to remove that pesky "royal" term. Hellyer had total disdain for any heritage or inherent esprit-de-corps (his book "Damn the torpedoes" is very revealing about the whole issue of intergration).

The bases are now "Wings" which is an old RAF term for a air unit of lesser strength than a "group" but bigger than a "squadron". For example CFB Trenton has several squadrons within 8 Wing.

There is no magic size when a Command becomes a Force, or a Division becomes a Corps but these terms usually reflect the rank of the CO.

Some Regiments can actually be made up of a single battallion but they keep it as a Regt because of history, esprit-de-corps etc.
Disbanding units because of size or any other issues is a very emotional one to it's serving and former members. Something that was not taken into account when the Airborne Regt was disbanded, a matter that smarts as much to the Army (or should I say "Mobile Command", I kid you not!) as much as losing the 'royal' prefix pissed the Air and Naval forces off.

The military is a culture that is full of contradictions. Air Command purporting to be an 'airforce' is just one of the many!

Clear as mud eh?


I understand and respect the power of tradition and unit history. Canada has a great deal of "regional units" such as "the winnipeg rifles" etc.

Without meaning any insult is there wisdom in consolidating a relatively small army into a few condensed units like The navy being split into 3 fleets, the airforce into (5) wings, and tghe army into the marines, dragoons, rangers, etc?

No offense to anybody intended.

Would be be better served by having fewer "macro unit" groupings?

I hope I am making a coherent point.

   



WBenson @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Tman1 Tman1:
WBenson WBenson:
I didn't say she was more Canadian than all Canadians born here, just some. Certainly there are some we'd want to disown. Wasn't there just a trial in Chicago that proved that?

This is disturbing to say the least. Himmler would be proud. Care to elaborate on who to disown and discard? Ya know what? Why stop with the Queen, here's a new law. Anybody who knows more about Canada than themselves, are automatic citizens and the ones who don't will be disowned or people WBenson doesn't consider Canadian. How about that? :roll:


Are you saying that every person who was ever born in Canada or lived in Canada is a positive contributer to society? Historically, one of the worst punishments that could be given for a crime was banishment. Of course, in a modern world made up of nation states, that is now impossible, and would be extremely dubious constitutionally. Are mass murderers truly deserving of the adjective "Canadian" if they don't stand up to the values laid down in our own constitution, the supreme law of Canada? Yes, they are Canadian citizens and should be treated as such under the law, but are they a part of Canadian society?

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
Of course Madame Jean would be more than welcome to stay, and could be in charge of glad handing with the politicians and protocol at the State BBQ's.


Please, if we must ditch the current monarchy, surely we can let her go as well. There are plenty of places to "play celebrity", Rideau Hall shouldn't be one of them.

   



SprCForr @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:34 pm

EyeBrock EyeBrock:
...or should I say "Mobile Command", I kid you not!


No. :wink: You should be saying Land Force Command (LFC). We haven't been FMC in a while now.

   



Tman1 @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:35 pm

WBenson WBenson:
The very first office described in the Constitution Act, 1867, is that of the monarch. "In name only" conveys that we don't actually have a Queen, we just tell ourselves we do, and that eventually if you dig into the office, you'll just find a Wizard of Oz-esque man behind a curtain. The Constitution Act is a set of rules that set up how Canada is governed. There is nothing fictional in it, and nothing "in name only." Limited powers do not reduce reality.

First, this isn't 1867, second, there is a second Constitution Act 1982.

Third, I don't if you are agreeing with me or trying to be funny in a oddly-attempted cleaver way using The Wizard of Oz-esque analogy, which doesn't make sense at all.

Fourth, you haven't provided any insight or argument to the last exchange.

   



EyeBrock @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:43 pm

DerbyX DerbyX:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
DerbyX DerbyX:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
DerbyX DerbyX:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Clogeroo Clogeroo:
$1:

If the government ever officially uses the terms "Canadian Air Force" and "Canadian Navy", they are obligated to attach "Royal" to them.


Fair enough they might as well go back to their old names again. But how come it is not the Royal Maritime Command then?


"Commands" are usually large military components within a "force" therefore don't rate a "Royal", much like individual unit's such as DART etc don't rate the same.

Most Commonwealth nations use commands within a Force. RAF had Strike Command, Training Command, Support Command within the actual Air Force.

When the RCN and RCAF went to Maritime and Air Commands they were basically downgraded as independant 'Forces'.


Can you translate a bit for me.

Weren't the RCF & RCAF already maritime & air commands?

Sorry to sound dense but are we simply speaking in terms of total strength dictating calling the navy RCN (ditto RCAF)?


No the RCN was actually a 'navy' and the RCAF was an actual 'airforce'. "Commands" are lesser in military stature and make up parts of a "force". When these designations were changed the 'forces' were downgraded. It's like making a 'Division' a Regiment. Or a Squadron a Flight. Means nothing to those outside the military but it sure meant a lot to those in it!


I'm still a little foggy. If our unit (navy - airforce -army) strength is at a certain level then it gets a certain designation right?

We aren't calling a battalion a regiment right?

In terms of our airforce we term each unit per base a "wing".

I'm not trying to be dumb (though doing a good job) just trying to understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that we should change currenty unit terminolgy or that we need to boost numbers in order to support calling a ""division" a "division" (for example)?


Well, you are getting a grasp of it!

The actually terms "navy" and "airforce" are not size relative Mr Hellyer chose to use a term normally used to designate a part of a navy or airforce to rename them in order to remove that pesky "royal" term. Hellyer had total disdain for any heritage or inherent esprit-de-corps (his book "Damn the torpedoes" is very revealing about the whole issue of intergration).

The bases are now "Wings" which is an old RAF term for a air unit of lesser strength than a "group" but bigger than a "squadron". For example CFB Trenton has several squadrons within 8 Wing.

There is no magic size when a Command becomes a Force, or a Division becomes a Corps but these terms usually reflect the rank of the CO.

Some Regiments can actually be made up of a single battallion but they keep it as a Regt because of history, esprit-de-corps etc.
Disbanding units because of size or any other issues is a very emotional one to it's serving and former members. Something that was not taken into account when the Airborne Regt was disbanded, a matter that smarts as much to the Army (or should I say "Mobile Command", I kid you not!) as much as losing the 'royal' prefix pissed the Air and Naval forces off.

The military is a culture that is full of contradictions. Air Command purporting to be an 'airforce' is just one of the many!

Clear as mud eh?


I understand and respect the power of tradition and unit history. Canada has a great deal of "regional units" such as "the winnipeg rifles" etc.

Without meaning any insult is there wisdom in consolidating a relatively small army into a few condensed units like The navy being split into 3 fleets, the airforce into (5) wings, and tghe army into the marines, dragoons, rangers, etc?

No offense to anybody intended.

Would be be better served by having fewer "macro unit" groupings?

I hope I am making a coherent point.


It makes total sense. I know the Brits have recently (to much gnashing of teeth) rolled quite a few regts into rather big regts.

Mobile Command/The Canadian Army has three regular infantry regts which ensures we can only deploy one regt at a time. The regional units are all militia which are usually piecemealed out to reforce under strength regular units.

You seem to be getting the hang of this military org stuff!

   



EyeBrock @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:44 pm

SprCForr SprCForr:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
...or should I say "Mobile Command", I kid you not!


No. :wink: You should be saying Land Force Command (LFC). We haven't been FMC in a while now.


Roger that, I never keep up with Pongo terms!

   



SprCForr @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:52 pm

DerbyX DerbyX:
I understand and respect the power of tradition and unit history. Canada has a great deal of "regional units" such as "the winnipeg rifles" etc.

Without meaning any insult is there wisdom in consolidating a relatively small army into a few condensed units like The navy being split into 3 fleets, the airforce into (5) wings, and tghe army into the marines, dragoons, rangers, etc?

No offense to anybody intended.

Would be be better served by having fewer "macro unit" groupings?

I hope I am making a coherent point.


The CF has done that already via the Brigade Groups and the Land Force Areas. The "macro groupings" that I think you refer to are reflected in the Battle Groups that each Brigade deploy operationally.

   



EyeBrock @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:20 pm

SprCForr SprCForr:
DerbyX DerbyX:
I understand and respect the power of tradition and unit history. Canada has a great deal of "regional units" such as "the winnipeg rifles" etc.

Without meaning any insult is there wisdom in consolidating a relatively small army into a few condensed units like The navy being split into 3 fleets, the airforce into (5) wings, and tghe army into the marines, dragoons, rangers, etc?

No offense to anybody intended.

Would be be better served by having fewer "macro unit" groupings?

I hope I am making a coherent point.


The CF has done that already via the Brigade Groups and the Land Force Areas. The "macro groupings" that I think you refer to are reflected in the Battle Groups that each Brigade deploy operationally.


I think the Canadian Army has it's act together, after all, it has been in action quite a lot since the end of the Cold War.

Maritime and Air Command still seem to be less than robust in response, especially Air Command. I would like to see CF18's supporting the troops in Afghanistan. No more blue-on-blue would be nice.

   



WBenson @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:22 pm

Tman1 Tman1:
Indeed, it is called ostracization, induced by the ancient Greeks and other people. Glad we learned from that eh? I get it now, prisoners, bums, panhandlers, probably from your point of view non-monarchists, dregs of society should all be banished from Canada right Himmler?

You're saying the Queen is more Canadian than these sorts and types? Even if on a piece of paper in a Wizard of Oz-esque type way?


Other than the personal attack, you have made posts that I would consider reading. Unfortunately, every time you call me something that I find repugnant, you bring yourself down.

The Queen has stood up for Canadian values more than mass murderers. This has been my point the whole time.

   



WBenson @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:27 pm

Tman1 Tman1:
WBenson WBenson:
Are you saying that every person who was ever born in Canada or lived in Canada is a positive contributer to society?

No, and what does that matter? Is this more of your ideal utopia Marxist ideals? Get rid of the people who don't contribute positively to society? How does that address the question that the Queen is more Canadian than SOME born here? Because the Queen contributes to our society by being on our coins and paper money? Visits every 20 years? I'll wait.


Are you saying that Karla Homolka and Conrad Black are better Canadians than the Queen? Surely, by being nothing other than a dutiful head of state for longer than most Canadians have been alive, she has contributed more than they ever have. Perhaps I was lax with my words in the post that has caused such controversy. I should have expanded it to say, "The Queen has contributed more positive to Canadian society than many other Canadians."

The Queen visits on command of the government, by the way. She can't just show up when she pleases.

Oh, I'm neither a Marxist nor a National Socialist, by the way. I would appreciate if you stopped defaming me as such.

   



WBenson @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:28 pm

Tman1 Tman1:
WBenson WBenson:
The very first office described in the Constitution Act, 1867, is that of the monarch. "In name only" conveys that we don't actually have a Queen, we just tell ourselves we do, and that eventually if you dig into the office, you'll just find a Wizard of Oz-esque man behind a curtain. The Constitution Act is a set of rules that set up how Canada is governed. There is nothing fictional in it, and nothing "in name only." Limited powers do not reduce reality.

First, this isn't 1867, second, there is a second Constitution Act 1982.


The Constitution Act of 1982 in no way abrogates the authority of the Constitution Act of 1867. If it did there would be no monarchy or Parliament.

   



Tman1 @ Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:07 pm

WBenson WBenson:
Other than the personal attack, you have made posts that I would consider reading. Unfortunately, every time you call me something that I find repugnant, you bring yourself down.

I don't care. Personal attack? Take a look at your posts junior and tell me what you see? I bring myself down? Damn, you've already done that with your *get rid of people I don't like and toss them out the shitter* attitude hypocrite.
$1:
The Queen has stood up for Canadian values more than mass murderers. If you cannot see this self-evident point you are about as bright as Himmler

Self-evident point? It isn't even a point but an opinion. How do you know what those mass murderers believe in? Sorry, you are not the judge, jury, and executioner on citizenship and the moral police of Canada or would you rather I call you Karl Marx?

As for Himmler's intelligence, thanks, he was pretty damn bright. Can't say much for his personal beliefs though.

   



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