Chretien blasts Harper for skipping Beijing
EyeBrock @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:47 am
DerbyX DerbyX:
I disagree with boycotts and won't tell athletes who have trained so long and hard to skip the olympics just because a bunch of people want to hold a protest.
Why should so many people throw away something they have worked their whole life to get to for the sake of political protests?
If you truly support Harper then you should be disgusted with the cowardly way he did it. It was the political equivalent of a conscietous objecter fleeing to Canada and not making a stand. If he wants to protest then let him stand up and protest and not try and weasel out of it by calling it a "scheduling conflict".
As for Chretien turning a blind eye to China that just a load. Britain turned a blind eye to Pinochet when it served their needs and the UK has been behind some of the worst atrocities in history. Its also a good thing that Canada, the US, and Australia didn't have world opinion watching them when we comitted all our atrocities on our native peoples.
In fact if we even multiply all those horrible taser incidents that so many people are condemning the police and/or canada by the population factor between us and China we might not look so high and mighty.
The fact is that China is going through a shitload of growing pains transiting from an old world feudal society to a modern nation (and doing alot of the things we did) under a very intense microscope.
Of course thats just my opinion but it still doesn't change that the whole purpose and point of the Olympics is for countries to momentarily set aside their differences.
Why should so many people throw away something they have worked their whole life to get to for the sake of political protests?
If you truly support Harper then you should be disgusted with the cowardly way he did it. It was the political equivalent of a conscietous objecter fleeing to Canada and not making a stand. If he wants to protest then let him stand up and protest and not try and weasel out of it by calling it a "scheduling conflict".
As for Chretien turning a blind eye to China that just a load. Britain turned a blind eye to Pinochet when it served their needs and the UK has been behind some of the worst atrocities in history. Its also a good thing that Canada, the US, and Australia didn't have world opinion watching them when we comitted all our atrocities on our native peoples.
In fact if we even multiply all those horrible taser incidents that so many people are condemning the police and/or canada by the population factor between us and China we might not look so high and mighty.
The fact is that China is going through a shitload of growing pains transiting from an old world feudal society to a modern nation (and doing alot of the things we did) under a very intense microscope.
Of course thats just my opinion but it still doesn't change that the whole purpose and point of the Olympics is for countries to momentarily set aside their differences.
Quoting past misdeeds from the UK/Australia etc doesn't give China a free pass on oppression today.
And tasering a few people is hardly the same as executing at least SIX THOUSAND in 2007 (Amnesty International reports).
Chretien was quite happy to turn a blind eye to this stuff but Harper isn't. I'm not saying either is right, I just agree with Harper's approach.
hurley_108 @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:01 am
DerbyX DerbyX:
The Olympics is all about setting aside petty squabbles and coming togeather in the spirit of competition and as a way of building bridges and fostering goodwill among the nations. Snubbing the Olympic ceremonies is a slight towards every competing country and not just the host. This isn't the time or place for petty politics just as a funeral isn't the time or place for protests (how quickly so many forget). The Olympics were as much about an event where countries would be able to set aside their differences for a short while and all this does is send the message that Canada is acting like a petulant child.
Harper embaressed us on the international stage. Hell, he couldn't even make it an honest "protest". Instead he called it a scheduling conflict (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) so if anybody actually holds him accountable he can simply smile and say that it wasn't really a protest against the Chinese govt but simply that he accidentily scheduled his hair appointment on the same day as the opening ceremonies of one of the biggest and most important sporting event of the modern age. At least have some balls and make a statement about not attending due to Chinese human rights issues and act like a leader rather then making damn sure nobody can accuse you of doing exactly what you will quietly take credit for later.
Hell, if you really want to be a leader and you really have a problem with China then make a true statement and cut off all trade with them as a true protests. See how many Canadians want no access to the second largest and quite soon the largest economy on earth. make it part of your campaign also so all the people here can vote for it because I doubt a single person on here complaining about China makes absolutely certain to not buy any of their merchandise and makes a concentrated effort to prevent any Canadian company from selling to China also.
Harper embaressed Canada by snubbing the Olympics like this. There is a time and place for political protests and the Olympics isn't one of them. In addition to the snub he missed an opportunity to network with all the other world leaders in attendance and the ability to discuss issues with them without the publicity and scrutiny of an official visit. He screwed up, plain and simple.
Harper embaressed us on the international stage. Hell, he couldn't even make it an honest "protest". Instead he called it a scheduling conflict (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) so if anybody actually holds him accountable he can simply smile and say that it wasn't really a protest against the Chinese govt but simply that he accidentily scheduled his hair appointment on the same day as the opening ceremonies of one of the biggest and most important sporting event of the modern age. At least have some balls and make a statement about not attending due to Chinese human rights issues and act like a leader rather then making damn sure nobody can accuse you of doing exactly what you will quietly take credit for later.
Hell, if you really want to be a leader and you really have a problem with China then make a true statement and cut off all trade with them as a true protests. See how many Canadians want no access to the second largest and quite soon the largest economy on earth. make it part of your campaign also so all the people here can vote for it because I doubt a single person on here complaining about China makes absolutely certain to not buy any of their merchandise and makes a concentrated effort to prevent any Canadian company from selling to China also.
Harper embaressed Canada by snubbing the Olympics like this. There is a time and place for political protests and the Olympics isn't one of them. In addition to the snub he missed an opportunity to network with all the other world leaders in attendance and the ability to discuss issues with them without the publicity and scrutiny of an official visit. He screwed up, plain and simple.
I agree almost completely. I think that the athletes should have made a personal stand and chosen to boycott. Chosing of their own accord to put off for another four years what they've been training for would have sent a very strong message to the Chinese. In the days of the original olympics, when all would set aside their differences to compete, I don't think there were such disparities in wealth and freedom between nations.
As it is, though, they chose to compete, and they now deserve our support.
I have to shake my head at the hypocrisy of the military types that expect support for the troops even if they're fighting a war that one disagrees with, but who don't expect support (and who seem to be verging on condemning support) for athletes competing in games they disapprove of.
Personally, I support both the troops and the athletes.
DerbyX @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:08 am
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
DerbyX DerbyX:
I disagree with boycotts and won't tell athletes who have trained so long and hard to skip the olympics just because a bunch of people want to hold a protest.
Why should so many people throw away something they have worked their whole life to get to for the sake of political protests?
If you truly support Harper then you should be disgusted with the cowardly way he did it. It was the political equivalent of a conscietous objecter fleeing to Canada and not making a stand. If he wants to protest then let him stand up and protest and not try and weasel out of it by calling it a "scheduling conflict".
As for Chretien turning a blind eye to China that just a load. Britain turned a blind eye to Pinochet when it served their needs and the UK has been behind some of the worst atrocities in history. Its also a good thing that Canada, the US, and Australia didn't have world opinion watching them when we comitted all our atrocities on our native peoples.
In fact if we even multiply all those horrible taser incidents that so many people are condemning the police and/or canada by the population factor between us and China we might not look so high and mighty.
The fact is that China is going through a shitload of growing pains transiting from an old world feudal society to a modern nation (and doing alot of the things we did) under a very intense microscope.
Of course thats just my opinion but it still doesn't change that the whole purpose and point of the Olympics is for countries to momentarily set aside their differences.
Why should so many people throw away something they have worked their whole life to get to for the sake of political protests?
If you truly support Harper then you should be disgusted with the cowardly way he did it. It was the political equivalent of a conscietous objecter fleeing to Canada and not making a stand. If he wants to protest then let him stand up and protest and not try and weasel out of it by calling it a "scheduling conflict".
As for Chretien turning a blind eye to China that just a load. Britain turned a blind eye to Pinochet when it served their needs and the UK has been behind some of the worst atrocities in history. Its also a good thing that Canada, the US, and Australia didn't have world opinion watching them when we comitted all our atrocities on our native peoples.
In fact if we even multiply all those horrible taser incidents that so many people are condemning the police and/or canada by the population factor between us and China we might not look so high and mighty.
The fact is that China is going through a shitload of growing pains transiting from an old world feudal society to a modern nation (and doing alot of the things we did) under a very intense microscope.
Of course thats just my opinion but it still doesn't change that the whole purpose and point of the Olympics is for countries to momentarily set aside their differences.
Quoting past misdeeds from the UK/Australia etc doesn't give China a free pass on oppression today.
And tasering a few people is hardly the same as executing at least SIX THOUSAND in 2007 (Amnesty International reports).
Chretien was quite happy to turn a blind eye to this stuff but Harper isn't. I'm not saying either is right, I just agree with Harper's approach.
Who held us accountable or did we get a free pass? Did any of the countries participating in the genocide of the Boer war receive trials at Nuremberg? Are we truly all that sorry (and not this false apology crap that gets vilified when it is given) for everything we did to the natives including the fairly recent stolen generations phenomenom? Were we even held accoutable to any degree?
People in glass houses and all that jazz......
Tell me then, who is in bed with the Saudis and has been for half a century? The Liberals? Sure you said we should stop trading with them but are you willing to deal with the concequences? Is everybody else? How about China? "scheduling conflicts" sends a right old message doesn't it? Aside form the actual damage it will do to our trade and the people it hurts he hasn't done one thing that doesn't amount to more then making faces at them?
BTW, Canada was being vilified over the YVR taser incident which was magnified by the scores of additional taser incidents that followed with the RCMP being called all sorts of bad names. Multiply events like that by the population factor difference and see how we fare. How about all the violence that we went through during our industrial revolution (which is what China is going through) or any number of our gorwing pains as we matured. As usual our enlightened western society attacks any country that can't manage to do in a few years what we took over a hundread to do and we abhor the death and violence that they go through conveniently or justifying the death and destruction that we caused and continue to cause.
You don't like China? Fine, don't visit or buy anything of theirs but The Olympics isn't the time or place for chickenshit political protests hidden as "scheduling conflicts".
All this forum crying about China is going to have as much impact on them as me kicking the side of a mountain.
Quite frankly if the Chinese manage to achieve a modern and prosperous society without doing any of the shit we did or causing the violence and chaos that we did then more power to them. Whatever happens its their buisness and their society just as ours is our own.
DerbyX @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:09 am
hurley_108 hurley_108:
I have to shake my head at the hypocrisy of the military types that expect support for the troops even if they're fighting a war that one disagrees with, but who don't expect support (and who seem to be verging on condemning support) for athletes competing in games they disapprove of.
Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Good point.
EyeBrock @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:18 am
DerbyX DerbyX:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
DerbyX DerbyX:
I disagree with boycotts and won't tell athletes who have trained so long and hard to skip the olympics just because a bunch of people want to hold a protest.
Why should so many people throw away something they have worked their whole life to get to for the sake of political protests?
If you truly support Harper then you should be disgusted with the cowardly way he did it. It was the political equivalent of a conscietous objecter fleeing to Canada and not making a stand. If he wants to protest then let him stand up and protest and not try and weasel out of it by calling it a "scheduling conflict".
As for Chretien turning a blind eye to China that just a load. Britain turned a blind eye to Pinochet when it served their needs and the UK has been behind some of the worst atrocities in history. Its also a good thing that Canada, the US, and Australia didn't have world opinion watching them when we comitted all our atrocities on our native peoples.
In fact if we even multiply all those horrible taser incidents that so many people are condemning the police and/or canada by the population factor between us and China we might not look so high and mighty.
The fact is that China is going through a shitload of growing pains transiting from an old world feudal society to a modern nation (and doing alot of the things we did) under a very intense microscope.
Of course thats just my opinion but it still doesn't change that the whole purpose and point of the Olympics is for countries to momentarily set aside their differences.
Why should so many people throw away something they have worked their whole life to get to for the sake of political protests?
If you truly support Harper then you should be disgusted with the cowardly way he did it. It was the political equivalent of a conscietous objecter fleeing to Canada and not making a stand. If he wants to protest then let him stand up and protest and not try and weasel out of it by calling it a "scheduling conflict".
As for Chretien turning a blind eye to China that just a load. Britain turned a blind eye to Pinochet when it served their needs and the UK has been behind some of the worst atrocities in history. Its also a good thing that Canada, the US, and Australia didn't have world opinion watching them when we comitted all our atrocities on our native peoples.
In fact if we even multiply all those horrible taser incidents that so many people are condemning the police and/or canada by the population factor between us and China we might not look so high and mighty.
The fact is that China is going through a shitload of growing pains transiting from an old world feudal society to a modern nation (and doing alot of the things we did) under a very intense microscope.
Of course thats just my opinion but it still doesn't change that the whole purpose and point of the Olympics is for countries to momentarily set aside their differences.
Quoting past misdeeds from the UK/Australia etc doesn't give China a free pass on oppression today.
And tasering a few people is hardly the same as executing at least SIX THOUSAND in 2007 (Amnesty International reports).
Chretien was quite happy to turn a blind eye to this stuff but Harper isn't. I'm not saying either is right, I just agree with Harper's approach.
Who held us accountable or did we get a free pass? Did any of the countries participating in the genocide of the Boer war receive trials at Nuremberg? Are we truly all that sorry (and not this false apology crap that gets vilified when it is given) for everything we did to the natives including the fairly recent stolen generations phenomenom? Were we even held accoutable to any degree?
People in glass houses and all that jazz......
Tell me then, who is in bed with the Saudis and has been for half a century? The Liberals? Sure you said we should stop trading with them but are you willing to deal with the concequences? Is everybody else? How about China? "scheduling conflicts" sends a right old message doesn't it? Aside form the actual damage it will do to our trade and the people it hurts he hasn't done one thing that doesn't amount to more then making faces at them?
BTW, Canada was being vilified over the YVR taser incident which was magnified by the scores of additional taser incidents that followed with the RCMP being called all sorts of bad names. Multiply events like that by the population factor difference and see how we fare. How about all the violence that we went through during our industrial revolution (which is what China is going through) or any number of our gorwing pains as we matured. As usual our enlightened western society attacks any country that can't manage to do in a few years what we took over a hundread to do and we abhor the death and violence that they go through conveniently or justifying the death and destruction that we caused and continue to cause.
You don't like China? Fine, don't visit or buy anything of theirs but The Olympics isn't the time or place for chickenshit political protests hidden as "scheduling conflicts".
All this forum crying about China is going to have as much impact on them as me kicking the side of a mountain.
Quite frankly if the Chinese manage to achieve a modern and prosperous society without doing any of the shit we did or causing the violence and chaos that we did then more power to them. Whatever happens its their buisness and their society just as ours is our own.
Derby, you need to stop making excuses for the Chinese as they merrily execute and imprison thousands.
They have their own very efficient propaganda machine and they really don't need your help! (Unless you are up for a job there?)
It's not a case of 'like' or 'dislike' China.
Until they stop being a repressive regime I will espouse my views on the human rights and lack of democracy issues.
Unfortunately nobody in China is allowed to do that.
Growing pains doesn't excuse this totalitarian regime.
Really I have been puzzled for a very long time why Liberals under Chretien were willing to bow and scrape to these fascists.
It goes against all the principles of Liberalism, such as freedom, democracy, the right to worship who and what you want etc.
I can't see how anybody committed to freedom can defend the Chinese?
DerbyX @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:34 am
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Derby, you need to stop making excuses for the Chinese as they merrily execute and imprison thousands.
They have their own very efficient propaganda machine and they really don't need your help! (Unless you are up for a job there?)
It's not a case of 'like' or 'dislike' China.
Until they stop being a repressive regime I will espouse my views on the human rights and lack of democracy issues.
Unfortunately nobody in China is allowed to do that.
Growing pains doesn't excuse this totalitarian regime.
Really I have been puzzled for a very long time why Liberals under Chretien were willing to bow and scrape to these fascists.
It goes against all the principles of Liberalism, such as freedom, democracy, the right to worship who and what you want etc.
I can't see how anybody committed to freedom can defend the Chinese?
I can't see how anybody aware of our history can piously condemn others so readily?
Yes alot of what the Chinese do is horrific but so to was the death and destruction we caused and please don't hand me that "it was war" line because thats just a justification and the Chinese are justifying their actions just the same.
Once again, I'll point out that we westerners turned a blind eye to our own discretions or the descretions of our "allies" because it suited our purpose.
I notice you are far harsher on Chretien for allegedly supporting the Chinese but what about various Western leaders consorting with the Saudis or any other power that had oil?
Attempting to isolate China will only worsen the violence as will trying to force their culture to adopt westernized society in the blink of an eye.
We westerners keep telling everybody that they have no choice but to rapidly adopt our values and our views of society at a pace far axceeding what it took us to do.
To me thats the equivalent of shaking a toddler because it can't learn to walk and be potty trained in under a week.
Growing pains to me is exactly that. Our society had them and we used the death and destruction of world wars to help Canada mature and come of age.
I guess this will be another thing we will have to agree to disagree on.
EyeBrock @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:41 am
Yea! We will disagree but I'll have some of your points on western piousness.
We are less than perfect but Winnie summed it up in his usual succinct way:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
When the Chinese become democrats (and I’m sure it will happen), I will be in the line-up to shake their hands.
DerbyX @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:55 am
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Yea! We will disagree but I'll have some of your points on western piousness.
We are less than perfect but Winnie summed it up in his usual succinct way:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
When the Chinese become democrats (and I’m sure it will happen), I will be in the line-up to shake their hands.
We are less than perfect but Winnie summed it up in his usual succinct way:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
When the Chinese become democrats (and I’m sure it will happen), I will be in the line-up to shake their hands.
He also said
$1:
I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
I kinda like that one.
The Chinese deserve the same chance we got to forge whatever society they manage and I can only imagine what would be happening in Canada between the various political sides, the cultures, and the vast differences of opinions if we had 1.4 billion of us with a culture stretching back before recorded history rather then a measly 32 million with a brief history to speak of.
Let me know how appreciative you feel the next time some snotty 10 year old tells to what to do.
later.
Alta_redneck @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:23 am
hurley_108 hurley_108:
Bush was right to have gone. Harper is wrong to stay home.
I think it’s funny how the anti- Bush crowd is spreading the love for George W just so they can bash Harper.
Here’s some Olympic history, Bush is the first US President to EVER attend the opening ceremonies, when held in foreign country.
And if Harper had of gone, I can imagine these same people crying about photo ops and saying WTH is he doing there, this is about the athletes and has nothing to do with politics.
kenmore @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:42 am
Well when you think about it.... Harper is usually in George Wya's back pocket kissing his ass,, so I was surprised Bush attended and Harper didn't... but then he was busy giving us (Quebec) gifts so we will vote for him in the next election... foolish man
mtbr @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:07 am
kenmore kenmore:
Well when you think about it.... Harper is usually in George Wya's back pocket kissing his ass,, so I was surprised Bush attended and Harper didn't... but then he was busy giving us (Quebec) gifts so we will vote for him in the next election... foolish man
and if he did show up you would have called it a PHOTO OP!
mtbr @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:05 am
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... ional/home
PM lashes back at Chrétien shot
The Canadian Press
August 19, 2008 at 12:06 PM EDT
HAMILTON — Prime Minister Stephen Harper is firing back at Jean Chrétien, calling the former Liberal PM a hypocrite for criticizing Mr. Harper's decision to skip the Olympics in Beijing.
Mr. Chrétien said Monday that Canada could end up paying a hefty toll for Mr. Harper's decision to snub the Games in China, which is the world's second-largest and fastest-growing economy.
Mr. Harper noted, however, that Mr. Chretien attended only one Olympics during his 13 years in the prime minister's office – the Summer Games in Atlanta in 1996.
He called Mr. Chrétien's position “a bit hypocritical.”
In a speech Monday to the Canadian Bar Association, Mr. Chrétien said he would not have “hesitated a second” to attend the Beijing Olympics were he still prime minister.
Mr. Harper, who has not been to China since 2006, blamed a scheduling conflict for his decision not to attend, saying he had “work to do in the country.”
Hypocritical just like most Liberals. 
ridenrain @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:19 pm
DerbyX DerbyX:
Did any of the countries participating in the genocide of the Boer war receive trials at Nuremberg?
The Olympics shouldn't be politicised.. unless we can get some good jabs in.
“a bit hypocritical.”
ShepherdsDog @ Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:46 pm
$1:
Did any of the countries participating in the genocide of the Boer war receive trials at Nuremberg?
That's funny...it's fricking hilarious.....wait a sec.....you don't think he was serious when he wrote that? 
.......... That would make it even funnier.
DerbyX @ Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:17 am
ridenrain ridenrain:
DerbyX DerbyX:
Did any of the countries participating in the genocide of the Boer war receive trials at Nuremberg?
The Olympics shouldn't be politicised.. unless we can get some good jabs in.
“a bit hypocritical.”
One had nothing to do with the Olympics and you know it. You are he guys wanting it politicized by not only cheering but expecting everybody connected to the Olympics to deliver some form of protest against the Chinese based on your bigotry.
Since you aren't involved in any way you expect other people to ruin the entire spirit of the Olympics in order to pursue your personal agenda.
Thats pathetic.