Strike-plagued Lever factory declares bankruptcy
2Cdo @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:34 pm
Well folks someone here stated that no one here has worked at Lever so they didn't know what was going on at the plant, so as an ex-Lever worker let me tell you a few things about the plant in London.(I realise it's not the same plant but bear with me)
I worked the night shift 11-7 with approximately 100 other workers of which maybe 10-15% were union employees, the rest were temps. The union employees made fairly good money and the temps made about 8.00/hr. The company hired so many temps because to employ all union employees at their wage would have been a loss to the company. The hardest workers were the temps who were fighting to keep these jobs while the union workers took extended breaks and generally worked at half the pace of the temps. Whenever a new temp was hired it took almost an entire 5 minutes to teach him every aspect of whatever station he was working. I honestly don't know if that plant is even operating still, but I can only imagine if it is, it is due to temp workers and not the over-paid, lazy slobs that proudly wear the union patch.
Unions, moving more jobs out of country than any other organization.
Even an 8 track is ultra modern compared to union ideology.
Arrow @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:10 pm
bootlegga bootlegga:
There’s a lot of jobs that can’t be off-shored. A plumber has to physically be here in Canada to put toilets in. Same goes for electricians and pretty much every other trade out there.
Until the average Joe finds it more onerous to hire a professional plumber or electrician than attempt the job for him/herself. Unless you have a stable number of upper middle class jobs to support a service industry like plumbers or electricians, that service industry will evaporate over time.
bootlegga bootlegga:
Lots of other white-collar jobs won’t be off-shored because they can’t be either, like lawyers, doctors, and pharmacists. Those are the fields people need to move into. Simply shifting from one manufacturing job to another is NOT a solution.
Again, the issue is having a middle class that will support those others. Otherwise, people will do without until they absolutely can't.
bootlegga bootlegga:
The jobs that get outsourced and off-shored are the low skill/unskilled jobs, like lot sof manufacturing and call centre jobs. Frankly, if you choose one of those career paths, you shouldn’t be shocked when your job moves to India or China.
The reality of life is that not everybody on this continent is doctor/lawyer material. So what's your response when you become part of the outsourced?
bootlegga bootlegga:
Do I feel for people who have worked for 20 years in those fields and are left with nothing now? Of course, but I feel zero remorse for anyone who goes into those fields today, expecting to be able to provide for themselves and their families, just like I feel no sorrow for coal stokers, typewriter repairmen, or chambermaids.
But the problem is that you're slagging those who went into those fields 20 and 30 years ago and slagging them for not being prescient enough to be a doctor/lawyer/pharmacist.
Arrow Arrow:
bootlegga bootlegga:
Good. So you're saying you really don't know what the skillset of the individuals was and that you pulled your argument from your nether regions
Nope, but I know how to make soap myself (courtesy of the Internet and Fight Club

) and it’s not exactly rocket science. However, as I said, I have worked on other assembly lines before and most people working there are not skilled in the true definition of the term. Many of the people I worked with barely had finished high school.
Again, you don't know what exactly their job entailed. You're comparing apples and oranges and throwing in a winkie as if that makes it all better.
bootlegga bootlegga:
Well, right now less than 2% of the population has a graduate degree, so I would hazard a guess that I’m pretty safe. After all, a bachelors degree in the postwar years was enough to pretty much guarantee you a great job.
However, I do foresee the day when a graduate degree will be the standard that most people have, but I’d guess that’s at least a generation away, unless the standards to get one drop (or there is a change in how they are awarded).
Then, what we'll hear your caterwauling that all these johnny-come-latelies have devalued your hard-earned degree?
bootlegga bootlegga:
I have driven cab in the past, and its not as easy as most people think, and right now I have a PT job working at a gas station. I won’t be one to let pride get in the way of us making ends meet.
I wasn't suggesting that any of the Lever workers' pride would prevent them from taking a lesser-paying job. I just take issue that this can be categorised as progress.
bootlegga bootlegga:
I wish I was 28, but I’m actually closer to 40 than 30. I don’t blame the company I worked for. I knew there was a chance I’d be laid off, and like you, worked extra hard to pay off debts. All we have now is a mortgage on our condo. Fortunately for us, my wife is an accountant and makes a good wage. The struggle will come for us in the fall, after she has the baby and we’re both making the $447/week maximum.
OK. So your combined income was north of $40K when you both had an income. This is the intelligence that you were sparing with and puts your argument in a much different, less selfless light. Your tone was caustic about others older than yourself and their ability to be flexible when you haven't really entered the crucible yet. That was a little disingenuous on your part.
bootlegga bootlegga:
I agree with you there. While Trudeau (and his generation of Liberals) may have done a lot of things I didn’t care for, FIRA was one of his good ideas. Of course, a few minutes after Mulroney got in, he dismantled it and Chretien/Martin didn’t have the balls to re-build it, which was one of their mistakes back in the 90s.
Because the collective mindset shifted into 'I'm alright Jack....'. I think the reality is that when the Boomers lose political sway, the general political pitch in this country is going to move left toward the centre (and not a moment too soon). We're all in this together and for the well-healed to spend a nickel so that the middle class saves a dime bothers me not a little bit.
Arrow @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:19 pm
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Arrow Arrow:
Glad to hear that fortune's favoured you. Can you appreciate that not all are as fortunate? I guess that's what gets me about some here is the dogged adherence to the Horatio Alger self-made man mythos as if Fate has always and will always favour you. I've seen both sides of fortune and don't curse Fate when things get bumpy. You guys seem to blame the workers because Lever Bros. sold out and the new venture capitalists wanted a guaranteed return above and beyond.
Sure can appreciate that some aren't as fortunate. I can also appreciate that even more are careless with their spending and saving.
But therein lies the conundrum. The tone here has been as if all were profligate with their spending. And honestly, you work 20-odd years at an outfit and then find that there's new ownership that expects you to cut your pay packet so that they can ensure their ROI and you wonder who the greedy ones are in that equation?
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Because I've worked in a unionized environment. I've been part of companies that were non-union and went union while I was there. Being in the Durham Region, I have a lot of friends and family currently in Unions working for GM, OPG, etc.
And you think that all the unionised ones are sucking off the teat of glorious capital?
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Arrow Arrow:
And unless the kidlets were unplanned, I wouldn't qualify your experience as one with curveballs. Finding out one of the kidlets had issues or problems of some kind or having a competitor come into your territory and eat your lunch would however.
You don't think planning for 1 child then having two isn't a curveball? Give your head a shake.
You didn't identify parental age or familial income so it's hard to make a guestimate under those circumstances. Nonetheless, twins aren't the degree of curveball faced by a couple with a special needs child of whatever category, is it? And if you're 25 as opposed to 45, the children in the equation factor differently if there's a job lost, don't they?
Or do they in your world?
Arrow @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:26 pm
2Cdo 2Cdo:
The union employees made fairly good money and the temps made about 8.00/hr. The company hired so many temps because to employ all union employees at their wage would have been a loss to the company.
And the temps did exactly the same job as the union employees? If not, your comparison's a non-starter.
2Cdo 2Cdo:
The hardest workers were the temps who were fighting to keep these jobs while the union workers took extended breaks and generally worked at half the pace of the temps.
So we're all supposed to aspire to be minimum-wage temps?
2Cdo 2Cdo:
Unions, moving more jobs out of country than any other organization.
Greed, selfishness and saving a nickel at Walmart is more the factor than anything else. If there isn't a cross-section of middle-class jobs on this continent (and in this country), then the majority of us are doomed. Period.
Arrow @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:28 pm
PluggyRug PluggyRug:
Even an 8 track is ultra modern compared to union ideology.
Thanks for that pithy comment. That really contributed something.
Wanna come out and explain how you would reconcile the needs of the many over the wants of the few?
Brenda @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:31 pm
Arrow Arrow:
Greed, selfishness and saving a nickel at Walmart is more the factor than anything else. If there isn't a cross-section of middle-class jobs on this continent (and in this country), then the majority of us are doomed. Period.
That's the wrong way 'round.
You have to save a nickel and shop at Walmart if that makes sure you have a little paycheque left at the end of the month.
I can guarantee you, that the ones that have a lot of paycheque left at the end of the month, do NOT shop at Walmart.
A lot of people have just a lot of month left at the end of our paycheques...
Arrow @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:38 pm
Brenda Brenda:
Arrow Arrow:
Greed, selfishness and saving a nickel at Walmart is more the factor than anything else. If there isn't a cross-section of middle-class jobs on this continent (and in this country), then the majority of us are doomed. Period.
That's the wrong way 'round.
You have to save a nickel and shop at Walmart if that makes sure you have a little paycheque left at the end of the month.
I can guarantee you, that the ones that have a lot of paycheque left at the end of the month, do NOT shop at Walmart.
A lot of people have just a lot of month left at the end of our paycheques...
It's a chicken and egg argument. Which came first? Going to Walmart when you didn't have to so that you could afford to take the kids to Disneyland which ultimately resulted in your manufacturing job being sent to India to maintain the profit margin of the company you used to work for before they became hooked into the necessity of selling through Walmart because consumers became accustomed to saving that nickel?
Or enough people are being paid hand-to-mouth wages and found it easier to buy at Walmart than demand a decent wage?
Brenda @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:43 pm
It was the chicken
She was created 
Arrow @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:05 pm
But who created the raptor she evolved from? 
Brenda @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:06 pm
God! Who else? 
(yeah, that was sarcasm
)
ok, lets break this argument down a little because there are really 2 things going on here
1) The assertion that some jobs like manufacturing are now part of the "old economy" and we should be eliminating these jobs. Therefore, the people who work those jobs are not valued and need to start doing something else or accept dramatically less pay compensation.
I would argue first that this economic model is a mistake: "real" economies make "real" products. The "new" economy draws much of its wealth from financial products and activities. The difference between the two can be understood just by examining the massive financial meltdown we just experienced. Much of the "wealth" that was supposedly created existed on paper only. Just because somebody owes you a million dollars doesn't make you a millionaire, but much of our GDP and wealth was based on this illusion: too many people (banks, investors, speculators) gambling and investing with money that didn't really exist and even worse, borrowed money that didn't exist. Financial markets are increasingly speculative, where investments are astronomically overvalued one week for no other reason than people are "speculating" that others will also overvalue it, and become completely worthless the next once everyone accepts the reality. At least an automaker who can't sell its cars still has an inventory of product of some value. An investor who can't sell his stock has absolutely nothing except worthless scraps of paper. When a huge section of our economic activity is based on these scraps of paper, everything heads to the shitter. This is why we live in this bubble economy now, where we constantly fluctuate in a volatile market from bubble to recession back to bubble with hardly any time in the happy middle. Compare that with the Keynesian era that existed before Reaganomics where we had the longest period of sustained growth in modern human history.
But secondly and more to the point of this thread, I would assert that what you are saying is "university is the new high school," in otherwords what is needed for there to be general prosperity among working Candians is a higher standard of minimum education, such as university. The argument here does not believe that devaluing "unskilled" labour diminishes the middle class because the affected workforce will eventually develop new skills and move into other parts of the economy which pay better. However, its questionable how much of the current and future population really has the personal potential to become "skilled" or "educated" and to what extent people would be prevented from developing these skills due to realities of life(ie unplanned kids, illnesses, etc) would interfere with those who did have the ability. I'm willing to concede that a much larger segment of society COULD upgrade their skills and get better jobs, but unless its a substantial number, there would be a problem of overall decline in national prosperity since there would be a mismatch between a population's economic needs and supply. It also raises the question of whether the system makes these skills acessible enough, with rising tuition fees, etc. which bassically discourage people from seeking those upgrades.
I used to believe the "middle class is not shrinking" theory, but in the big picture, it's become increasingly apparent that the level of education and skills (or lack of it) is not what drives down a worker's wages and income in this economic model and ideology: it is the availablity of education and skills among the labour force regardless of what level it is. The income profile of the workforce is now designed purposely to be a pyramid, with the bulk of the population at the bottom instead of the Keyneisan diamond where the bulk is in the middle. If there are too many people with that same level, even if it is a university education, those workers will be the new autoworker or garbage man. If every single high school student went to university and got a bachelor degree and an MBA then MBA's would be in great abundance and having an MBA would be a mediocre-paying job. Employers do not pay you based on the 'value' of the work you do, they pay you based on how easy it would be for them to replace you with someone else who posesses similar skills.
2)Tying into that last point, the second argument to be made is not about jobs that we want to eliminate, but jobs we want to keep but pay less for, like garbagemen and water quality technicians and teachers. If we had robots that could do these jobs and we wanted to phase the workforce out of them, the argument might have more merit and would be more applicable to the first point. But since we want to keep these jobs around and simply cut those workers out of the middle class, this results in an economic loss to society since we're just growing the army of the working poor. Its also unfair to say these people "haven't invested or sacrificed anything," these are the workers who often put themselves at physical risk on the job, suffering repetitive stress injuries, immediate and long-term health and safety hazards, long hours of mind-numbing physical exertion, late shifts, changing schedules, etc. Ironically it was unions that brought us the 8-hour day and 5-day workweek, but unionized workers are the least likely to enjoy these as they have traded off the "luxuries" we take for granted in exchange for hourly pay that is still less than our salaries. Sure, maybe they get St. Jean Batiste day off or some other "ridiculous" sounding perk, but at the end of the day, they spend more of their life serving somebody else doing shit jobs than the rest of us.
Arrow Arrow:
But therein lies the conundrum. The tone here has been as if all were profligate with their spending. And honestly, you work 20-odd years at an outfit and then find that there's new ownership that expects you to cut your pay packet so that they can ensure their ROI and you wonder who the greedy ones are in that equation?
Would you start a company, only to make nothing? That whole concept is such BS. Companies are in the business to make money. That's how it works. Companies are legally responsible to their shareholders.
Arrow Arrow:
And you think that all the unionised ones are sucking off the teat of glorious capital?
No, but it's more rampant in a unionised environment.
Arrow Arrow:
You didn't identify parental age or familial income so it's hard to make a guestimate under those circumstances. Nonetheless, twins aren't the degree of curveball faced by a couple with a special needs child of whatever category, is it? And if you're 25 as opposed to 45, the children in the equation factor differently if there's a job lost, don't they?
Or do they in your world?
Regardless of parental age, income or a job lost, having twins is a HUGE curveball for any family. Unless you've been in this situation, you have no basis for an argument. None.
Is having a special needs child a much more troublesome situation? Absolutely.
Arrow @ Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:15 pm
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Would you start a company, only to make nothing? That whole concept is such BS. Companies are in the business to make money. That's how it works. Companies are legally responsible to their shareholders.
They didn't start a company, did they? You're blaming the boiler stokers for the iceberg there, Cap'n.
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Arrow Arrow:
And you think that all the unionised ones are sucking off the teat of glorious capital?
No, but it's more rampant in a unionised environment.
And this is based on your encyclopaedic experience and real-world knowledge base, is it? Tar and feather 'em all, eh?
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Arrow Arrow:
You didn't identify parental age or familial income so it's hard to make a guestimate under those circumstances. Nonetheless, twins aren't the degree of curveball faced by a couple with a special needs child of whatever category, is it? And if you're 25 as opposed to 45, the children in the equation factor differently if there's a job lost, don't they?
Or do they in your world?
Regardless of parental age, income or a job lost, having twins is a HUGE curveball for any family. Unless you've been in this situation, you have no basis for an argument. None.
I'll trade my wife's special needs daughter for twins any day, bud! Twins being a challenge is a temporary situation that'll get progressively better as time goes by. I don't have that to fall back on. But somehow, I manage to be able to understand the position of a company lifer fucked over for ROI and have some understanding and compassion for the situation that they were thrust into. You? Fuck 'em seems to sum up your take on their situation.
Nice!
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Is having a special needs child a much more troublesome situation? Absolutely.
Damn straight. Get it through the ice water in your veins that something could happen to you. Or your wife. Or your kids. Through nobody's fault on your side of the equation, something could happen. And you're up the proverbial creek.
Should others point at you and shake their heads and you just take it?
Arrow Arrow:
PluggyRug PluggyRug:
Even an 8 track is ultra modern compared to union ideology.
Thanks for that pithy comment. That really contributed something.
Wanna come out and explain how you would reconcile the needs of the many over the wants of the few?
Unions do not have needs, just greeds.
They are just dinosaur organisations waiting for the next bolide to cause extinction. As of now the unions are manufactuing their own meteor/demise.