Beck criticized for comparing victims to "Hitler Youth"
Psudo @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:19 pm
andyt andyt:
Psudo Psudo:
So Beck's a dink. Next topic, please.
Was that your response when the left was trying to pin the Gifford shooting on the right?
Mustang1 @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:29 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Mustang1 Mustang1:
The 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend ?!?
That was an SS armoured group whose members had been HJ. None of these people were kids.
No, it was an armored division that had current HJ members in it. Bedsides, it depends on your "definition" of a kid because many were 18 and some younger, even 16 and 17 at division recruitment. Also, 15 year olds from HJ saw action on the Eastern Front.
fifeboy @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:29 pm
andyt andyt:
Here are some of the "Hitler Youth" that were on that Island: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/photos-some-of-the-victims-and-survivors-from-utoya/article2109600/
Norway’s future leaders overflowed with idealism to make a better world http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/norways-future-leaders-overflowed-with-idealism-to-make-a-better-world/article2109593/
Norway’s future leaders overflowed with idealism to make a better world http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/norways-future-leaders-overflowed-with-idealism-to-make-a-better-world/article2109593/
$1:
They had visions of Norway as a nation that welcomed refugees, where the oil drilling that made the country wealthy would be curbed by environmental concerns, where young adults would get cheaper bus tickets and free condoms.
To someone older, more weary, those might sound like naive, callow visions. But to read about the past activism of the victims of the Utoya massacre is to appreciate the hopes and dreams of young women and men of an affluent, orderly country famous for social democracy and welfare-state generosity.Norway’s future liberal elite had gathered on bucolic Utoya Island for the traditional summer camp of the AUF, the youth wing of the ruling Labour Party.
And now at least 68 of them wouldn’t come back, felled by the guns of Anders Behring Breivik, a staggering loss for a small nation of five million people.
“Utoya is my youth paradise, which yesterday was transformed into Hell,” Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said after the mass shooting.
That loss of innocence was exemplified by Hanne Kristine Fridtun, a 20-year-old who last year was elected AUF leader for the Sogn og Fjordane region in southwestern Norway.
She had been known as a big-hearted activist who worried about municipal accessibility for people in wheelchairs. She had pushed for free condoms and other contraceptives for young people so they could avoid the trauma of abortion.Now her name was reported around the world as the victim who was on her cellphone, bearing witness to the tragedy until the line went silent.
A reporter with the Norwegian national broadcaster NRK had reached her around 6 p.m. Friday, when the rampage had begun.
“I can’t speak loudly, I have to whisper,” she said, according to Norwegian and Swedish media accounts.
“Twenty of us have hidden down by the reeds. We’ve heard shooting. We don’t know what’s happening.”
Then three shots could be heard nearby. She said she had to hang up because someone was moving toward them. It was the last she was heard from.
The victims ranged from 14-year-old Johannes Buo to Trond Berntsen, 51, an off-duty police officer and stepbrother to Norway’s crown princess, Mette-Marit. Mr. Berntsen was credited with saving his 10-year-old son, taking the boy to safety before confronting the gunman.
Three days after the shooting, many were still officially listed as missing. One exception was 21-year-old Tore Eikeland, UAF chairman for the Hordaland region, whose death was confirmed by Mr. Stoltenberg at a memorial service where he described the young man as “one of our most talented youth politicians.”
At a party convention earlier this year, Mr. Eikeland was wildly applauded for a passionate, articulate speech in which, bucking the party leadership’s position, he warned about the fate of Norway’s postal service in the face of European Union integration. “Return to sender,” he quipped as he successfully called for the rejection of the EU directive that would have ended Norway’s state postal monopoly.
Policy-driven thoughts were also on the mind of Mr. Eikeland’s 18-year-old colleague, the Hordaland UAF vice-chairman, Tarald Mjelde.
“Shall sleep in the only camping spot on Utoya with more than three persons who are for EU,” he wrote on Twitter two days before the attack. He was among the missing, too.
Other victims exuded the same earnest idealism.
Guro Vartdal Håvoll, who cited Nelson Mandela among her inspirations, was a delegate from the town of Orsta. Like many other AUF youth members, she had also been concerned about oil drilling off the unspoiled Lofoten Islands in the Arctic. She also lobbied politicians because Norwegians over 16 have to pay adult bus fare when they aren’t accepted as being of legal age in other areas.
Utoya was also a place for Norway’s newcomers, the children of immigrants and refugees who were finding their niche in their new land.
One of the missing was Jamil Rafal Yasin, a 20-year-old delegate from the port of Egersund, who was born in Iraq.
At a memorial ceremony attended by thousands in Egersund, survivor Frida Ripland Moberg paid tribute to her.
“She is the reason why I support immigration and solidarity. She loved this country! I have never met anyone who expressed such love for our country as she did,” she said.
“Come home.”
To someone older, more weary, those might sound like naive, callow visions. But to read about the past activism of the victims of the Utoya massacre is to appreciate the hopes and dreams of young women and men of an affluent, orderly country famous for social democracy and welfare-state generosity.Norway’s future liberal elite had gathered on bucolic Utoya Island for the traditional summer camp of the AUF, the youth wing of the ruling Labour Party.
And now at least 68 of them wouldn’t come back, felled by the guns of Anders Behring Breivik, a staggering loss for a small nation of five million people.
“Utoya is my youth paradise, which yesterday was transformed into Hell,” Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said after the mass shooting.
That loss of innocence was exemplified by Hanne Kristine Fridtun, a 20-year-old who last year was elected AUF leader for the Sogn og Fjordane region in southwestern Norway.
She had been known as a big-hearted activist who worried about municipal accessibility for people in wheelchairs. She had pushed for free condoms and other contraceptives for young people so they could avoid the trauma of abortion.Now her name was reported around the world as the victim who was on her cellphone, bearing witness to the tragedy until the line went silent.
A reporter with the Norwegian national broadcaster NRK had reached her around 6 p.m. Friday, when the rampage had begun.
“I can’t speak loudly, I have to whisper,” she said, according to Norwegian and Swedish media accounts.
“Twenty of us have hidden down by the reeds. We’ve heard shooting. We don’t know what’s happening.”
Then three shots could be heard nearby. She said she had to hang up because someone was moving toward them. It was the last she was heard from.
The victims ranged from 14-year-old Johannes Buo to Trond Berntsen, 51, an off-duty police officer and stepbrother to Norway’s crown princess, Mette-Marit. Mr. Berntsen was credited with saving his 10-year-old son, taking the boy to safety before confronting the gunman.
Three days after the shooting, many were still officially listed as missing. One exception was 21-year-old Tore Eikeland, UAF chairman for the Hordaland region, whose death was confirmed by Mr. Stoltenberg at a memorial service where he described the young man as “one of our most talented youth politicians.”
At a party convention earlier this year, Mr. Eikeland was wildly applauded for a passionate, articulate speech in which, bucking the party leadership’s position, he warned about the fate of Norway’s postal service in the face of European Union integration. “Return to sender,” he quipped as he successfully called for the rejection of the EU directive that would have ended Norway’s state postal monopoly.
Policy-driven thoughts were also on the mind of Mr. Eikeland’s 18-year-old colleague, the Hordaland UAF vice-chairman, Tarald Mjelde.
“Shall sleep in the only camping spot on Utoya with more than three persons who are for EU,” he wrote on Twitter two days before the attack. He was among the missing, too.
Other victims exuded the same earnest idealism.
Guro Vartdal Håvoll, who cited Nelson Mandela among her inspirations, was a delegate from the town of Orsta. Like many other AUF youth members, she had also been concerned about oil drilling off the unspoiled Lofoten Islands in the Arctic. She also lobbied politicians because Norwegians over 16 have to pay adult bus fare when they aren’t accepted as being of legal age in other areas.
Utoya was also a place for Norway’s newcomers, the children of immigrants and refugees who were finding their niche in their new land.
One of the missing was Jamil Rafal Yasin, a 20-year-old delegate from the port of Egersund, who was born in Iraq.
At a memorial ceremony attended by thousands in Egersund, survivor Frida Ripland Moberg paid tribute to her.
“She is the reason why I support immigration and solidarity. She loved this country! I have never met anyone who expressed such love for our country as she did,” she said.
“Come home.”
Thanks Andy. This brought a tear to my eyes, something that is hard to do most of the time.
Zipperfish @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:27 pm
Psudo Psudo:
I think the Hitler Youth often were tools of evil, not necessarily evil themselves. At least one German rebel who died for activism against the Nazi Party was a former Hitler Youth (I have a copy of his biography). Bart's understating, and Zipperfish is overstating.
I just don't think the far right is doing a very good job of hiding their smirks right now.
It's funny in that it reflects on my earlier post about our post-objective world. Objectively, killing scores of unarmed teenagers at a holiday camp is a bad thingand that this type of behaviour should not be supported in a civil society. Common sense would dictate that, were there to be Hitler comparisons, they would more likely accrue to the shooter, a white supremacist who considered huimself heir to a pure bloodline.
But all that goes out the window. When challenged on the Hitler Youth comparison, what does the rabid right do? What they do every time--double down. Stick to their guns. Refuse to admit that associating victims of a murdeous sociopath to one of the most vile men to have ever lived is not perfectly appropriate.
BartSimpson @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:38 pm
Mustang1 Mustang1:
(The 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend) was an armored division that had current HJ members in it.
That's like saying the Marine Corp's 1st Recon had current civilians in it. It's nonsensical.
The Hitler Youth was a paramilitary organization of the civilian NSDAP.
The 12th was part of the Waffen SS which was a military organization which was commanded by the Wehrmacht High Command. Anyone in the 12th was Waffen SS and was a valid military target.
Suggesting any primacy of the HJ in the 12th is to assert that formations of 10-14 year old HJ kids were also valid military targets. I don't think that's where you want to go with this, is it?
BartSimpson @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:49 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I just don't think the far right is doing a very good job of hiding their smirks right now.
And when Breivik was being called a fundamentalist Christian and liberal commentators were suggesting banning right-wing parties and organizations and also investigating and summarily arresting Christians I've no doubt the far left was doing a fair amount of smirking, too.
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
It's funny in that it reflects on my earlier post about our post-objective world. Objectively, killing scores of unarmed teenagers at a holiday camp is a bad thing. Common sense would dictate that this type of behaviour should not be supported in a civil society.
Agreed. And people like myself want it severely punished. I want Breivik executed for his crimes because nothing else is appropriate. But because some touchy-feely types have been making the laws in Norway this guy might be out on the streets in 2022. No doubt, he'll also enjoy 24/7 police protection if that happens.
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
But all that goes out the window. When challenged on the Hitler Youth comparison, what does the rabid right do? What they do every time--double down. Stick to their guns. Refuse to admit that associating victims of a murdeous sociopath to one of the most vile men to have ever lived is perfectly appropriate.
Look, some of us in the world find a summer camp with the express goal of political training to be creepy. Maybe that's the norm in Europe and, if it is, I'd find it creepy even if it were conservatives doing it.
And if it were conservatives running a summer camp so they could politically indoctrinate a bunch of kids maybe Glenn Beck would call that similar to the Hitler Youth and then maybe you and the pulchitrude on this topic would agree with him.
Mustang1 @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:50 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Mustang1 Mustang1:
(The 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend) was an armored division that had current HJ members in it.
That's like saying the Marine Corp's 1st Recon had current civilians in it. It's nonsensical.
The Hitler Youth was a paramilitary organization of the civilian NSDAP.
The 12th was part of the Waffen SS which was a military organization which was commanded by the Wehrmacht High Command. Anyone in the 12th was Waffen SS and was a valid military target.
Suggesting any primacy of the HJ in the 12th is to assert that formations of 10-14 year old HJ kids were also valid military targets. I don't think that's where you want to go with this, is it?
My point still stands - HJ was a part of the formation of the 12th SS Panzer Division. It obviously ceased to be a paramilitary organization when they recruited members to military units.
Many were 17-19 years old (not 10-14 - get real & lose the argumentative fallacies).
It was responsible for some pretty ugly war crimes committed against Canadian soldiers. You want to offer up some tired relativist nonsense rationalizing their actions against Canadians and British? I don't think that's where you want to go with this, is it?
Any way you try and spin it, the HJ and the contemporary Labor Party of Norway have little in common.
Mustang1 @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:53 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
And if it were conservatives running a summer camp so they could politically indoctrinate a bunch of kids maybe Glenn Beck would call that similar to the Hitler Youth and then maybe you and the pulchitrude on this topic would agree with him.
I guessed you missed this part - "However, politically-oriented camps are being organized in several U.S. states by chapters of the "9/12 Project" -- an organization founded by Beck himself in 2009."
CNN.
When exactly are you and Beck railing against this?
Oh...and no, I'd still need a boatload more parallels before i'd retreat to tired old Nazi rhetoric.
Zipperfish @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:02 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
And when Breivik was being called a fundamentalist Christian and liberal commentators were suggesting banning right-wing parties and organizations and also investigating and summarily arresting Christians I've no doubt the far left was doing a fair amount of smirking, too.
You're not the victim here, Bart. The rabid right is not the victim here. The victims are being laid in their graves in Norway.
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Agreed. And people like myself want it severely punished. I want Breivik executed for his crimes because nothing else is appropriate. But because some touchy-feely types have been making the laws in Norway this guy might be out on the streets in 2022. No doubt, he'll also enjoy 24/7 police protection if that happens.
Red herring. The issue here is you've got a white supremacist who goes on a killing rampage, murders a bunch of kids, and yet you get the rabid right on here who think that comparing the dead kids to Hitler is the appropriate course of action.
It's not an appropriate comparison. It's the opposite of appropriate. It's patently ludicrous by any analysis. And yet the rabid right just double-down.
BartSimpson @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:03 pm
Mustang1 Mustang1:
Any way you try and spin it, the HJ and the contemporary Labor Party of Norway have little in common.
Which is what I originally said. Thanks for playing.
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Beck was off the mark with the Hitler Youth comment because this Worker's Youth League more closely resembles the Soviet Union's Young Pioneers.
sandorski @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:25 pm
Defending Beck on this is Fail. Srsly.
BartSimpson @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:40 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
you get the rabid right on here who think that comparing the dead kids to Hitler is the appropriate course of action.
After so many years of the Hitler thing getting trotted out for Goldwater, Nixon, Buchanan, Reagan, Bush, Cheney, Rove, Palin, Bachmann, the Minute Men, The Tea Party, Republicans, conservatives, Murdoch, Limbaugh, and etc. it's just come to the point that tossing out the Godwin-grenade has become a lingua-franca.
I suppose on the upside of kids not knowing their history anymore that maybe in a few decades we'll no longer hear any comparisons to Hitler because the majority of people will have no idea who he was.
Mustang1 @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:43 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Mustang1 Mustang1:
Any way you try and spin it, the HJ and the contemporary Labor Party of Norway have little in common.
Which is what I originally said. Thanks for playing.
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Beck was off the mark with the Hitler Youth comment because this Worker's Youth League more closely resembles the Soviet Union's Young Pioneers.
And yet, it's not what you wrote...
$1:
Mustang1 wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
What's more disturbing than what Beck said is the fact that it's not so far off the mark.
Oh...it's off the mark.
No, I've heard plenty of things from my father-in-law who was in the Hitler Youth and he made clear that the Hitler Youth was principally interested in teaching military skills to the kids and he never once heard anything political.
The Hitler Youth were tools and they were not intended to be leaders.
These kids at Utoya came from the leading families of Norway's Labour Party elite - including the Royal Family - and these kids were being indoctrinated to become the next generation of political leaders because they're the kids of today's Norwegian leftist political leaders.
That is what made these kids targets. Breivik didn't just kill 68 kids, he killed 68 of the kids who were being groomed to be the leftist elite of Norway's future. He's batsh*t crazy, but from his point of view I can see how what he did may have made sense to him. He attacked the leftist leadership of today with his bomb and he attacked the leftist leaders of tomorrow with his guns.
Odds are, Breivik killed kids who were destined to be Ministers and party leaders. His logic was appallingly cold blooded and regardless of his motivations I'm left sorry for the fact that Norway won't give this guy the execution he so richly deserves.
BartSimpson wrote:
What's more disturbing than what Beck said is the fact that it's not so far off the mark.
Oh...it's off the mark.
No, I've heard plenty of things from my father-in-law who was in the Hitler Youth and he made clear that the Hitler Youth was principally interested in teaching military skills to the kids and he never once heard anything political.
The Hitler Youth were tools and they were not intended to be leaders.
These kids at Utoya came from the leading families of Norway's Labour Party elite - including the Royal Family - and these kids were being indoctrinated to become the next generation of political leaders because they're the kids of today's Norwegian leftist political leaders.
That is what made these kids targets. Breivik didn't just kill 68 kids, he killed 68 of the kids who were being groomed to be the leftist elite of Norway's future. He's batsh*t crazy, but from his point of view I can see how what he did may have made sense to him. He attacked the leftist leadership of today with his bomb and he attacked the leftist leaders of tomorrow with his guns.
Odds are, Breivik killed kids who were destined to be Ministers and party leaders. His logic was appallingly cold blooded and regardless of his motivations I'm left sorry for the fact that Norway won't give this guy the execution he so richly deserves.
Thanks for playing? I must have missed the competition.
BartSimpson @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:48 pm
The Hitler Youth comparison is incorrect. The criticism of the political indoctrination is accurate...and I will also agree that it's hypocritical of Beck given that he's apparently sponsored the same kind of thing.
Mustang1 @ Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:50 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
The Hitler Youth comparison is incorrect. The criticism of the political indoctrination is accurate...and I will also agree that it's hypocritical of Beck given that he's apparently sponsored the same kind of thing.
![[B-o]](./images/smilies/drinkup.gif "Drink up")