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Cheers mate.

   

You argued that homosexuality is unnatural because evolution couldn't have produced it. I proved that wrong. Now your grasping at straws.



It's not an absolute known fact. It's a statistical correlation. People who engage in promiscuous (or even serial monogamous), unprotected vaginal sex probably have their LE reduced as well. Should we criminalize that? Criminalize sex outside of marriage?



So where's the cutoff? 15 years? Should risky behaviours that reduce lifespan by over 15 years be criminalised, but those that reduce lifespan by less than 15 years be permitted?

Besides, a whole lot more people smoke than engage in anal sex, so the cost of smoking to society in general may still be larger.



Either not many do, or those that do don't get very vocal about it because I just don't see a big push to reverse no fault divorce.



Homosexuality is neither safe nor unsafe. Homosexuality is attraction to people of the same gender (let's not forget that women can be homosexual as well).

All you've done is illustrate that some homosexuals engage in risky behaviour that can have negative consequences. I've illustrated that there are several other behaviours that have negative consequences as well.

You have some personal dislike of homosexuality that you're trying to shore up with a few weak arguments. And most of those you've dropped save the 20-30 years one, which is a lamentable statistic, and does mean something, though not as much as you'd purport, and is reason to promote safer sex, but not sufficient to criminalize anything.

You're just a homophobe looking to rationalize his intolerance.

   

One of the funniest stories you'll find on the internet: Tucker tries buttsex; hilarity does not ensue

   

You know Grandfed, just cause a guy is gay doesn't mean he wants to stick it up your butt, eh?

Blue, my friend told me that story...good Gods.

   

Have you read the "Sushi Pants" alcohol breathalizer story? That one's even better...

   

Yep, that is funny

   

that was great

   

Evolution doesn't "intend" anything. Do you honestly think the animals hold an annual meeting to discuss what to evolve next.

Regardless it isn't a reason for hatred.



I've seen this research before. The problem (other then the fact you are excluding lesbians) is that it is artifically inflated because of HIV and its impact on the community.

For that matter why don't we examine "life expectancy" for crab fisherman, or cops, or .....

If those "communities" have a lower life expectancy can I hate them too?



See above analysis. The difference here is that you can choose to live a very healthy homosexual lifestyle but by definition cannot if you are a smoker.

BTW, your data is flawed. You quoted that gay men live "20 years" less then straights then claim it reduces your life expectancy "3X" as much as smoking we can infer that smokers live 60 years longer then homosexuals. Thats absurd.

BTW(2), statistics have shown consistently that unmarried women live longer then married women while in men its reversed. By that data we should be demanding that women remain single for their health of course.



Thats just BS. The 2 greatest health care costs are treatment for terminal illness and long term geriatric care. HIV is lower then smoking related illness and care of old people has surpassed them all and rises as we live longer and longer lives. You may be surprised to see that alcohol impacts quite high up as well both in terms of accidents and long term adverse health effects. Do you hate the "alcohol using community" or just those who abuse it?



That at least is an opinion that you aren't basing on extremely bad statistical research and faulty data. My opinion differs. We saw them say the same about mixed race families during the 70s and about mixed religion. The damage and harm doesn't come from the actual family life of homosexuality but from the hatred society throws at them. The true damage comes when innocent children are made the target (and they always are) of the hatred and bigotry against the choices of their parents.



Tell you what. You decide which sub-categories and PM me with debate details. We'll take it to the L-X-D forum so to avoid all the rhetoric and stick to the issues.

I would be happy to leave religion out of it as long as you can tell me this. Swear on your honour (or bible) that religion isn't the basis of your beliefs and that all of the above is just you looking for additional non-religious reasons to support it.

Its one thing to come to a conculsion after doing the research but its entirely different to simply pick and choose research to support a pre-conceived notion.

Take your time and decide.

   

...."As early as 1858, G. Tardieu reported on the age distribution of males imprisoned in France for sodomy. Of the 216 who ages were given, the age range from under 15 to 69, with a median age of under 25. Eliminating all under 18, the median age rises to almost 40.

In 1914, M. Hirschfeld reported on German males convicted of involvement in sodomy. The age distribution ranged from under 15 to over 50, with the median of 24 years. Since "over 50" was the last category, we cannot determine just how many, if any, attain the age of 65. But only 9 % were over 50.

In the late 1930s and 1940s, Kinsey and his investigators spent more than 12 years seeking out and interviewing homosexuals. Because Kinsey and his colleagues were regarded as sexual liberators, homosexuals were eager to volunteer for his study. There is no reason to believe that his sample was not representative of all age groups available. Yet fewer than 1% of his homosexuals, male as well as female, were over the age of 65.

The Mattachine Society, the earliest of the "gay rights" organizations, gathered together a representative group of homosexuals for Evelyn Hooker to study in her highly influential 1950s study. The oldest of the 30 subjects was 50, the next oldest was 44, and the median age was 33.

In the early 1960s, Berger attempted to draw a sampling of elderly homosexuals, but had to begin his scale at 40 years and only 34 of 112 were over the age of 59,

From 1969 through 1970, the Kinsey Institute surveyed homosexuals in San Francisco. Although they recruited respondents in eight different ways, only 23% of male homosexuals and only 18% of lesbians were over the age of 45, despite the fact that the investigators tried for 25% from this age group. Their initial decision to draw only a quarter of their sampling from homosexuals over 45 indicates they already knew the problem existed, and they ended up omitting figures on age distribution from their report.

In 1977, the largest survey of homosexuals reported 0.2% of its lesbians and 0.8% of its homosexual males were age 65 or older.

The Spada Report: The Newest Survey of Gay Male Sexuality, in 1978, reported the median age was 30, with only 2.5% over age 65. J. Spada was openly homosexual and polled 1,022 male homosexuals by mail.

An openly lesbian M. Mendola, in 1979, polled 405 homosexuals by mail. The median age of those polled was 34, and only 10% were 50 or over. Source: The Mendola Report: A New Look at Gay Couples.

From the mid 1970s' to the early 1980s, interest in Gay Bowel Syndrome, sexually transmitted diseases, and hepatitis B generated a number of samples of the homosexual population.

- From 1977 through 1979, 102 homosexuals case histories were collected in Seattle and the oldest was 58.

- In 1979, 101 homosexuals who belonged to a group restricted to those over 40 was reported, and only 21 were over age 65.

- Also in 1979, 5,324 homosexual visitors to Denver's STD clinic had a median age of 27, a mean age of 28.5 and the oldest was 67.

- In 1982, only one of 103 homosexuals examined in San Francisco was over the age of 65.

In 1994, an obituary study revealed that the median age of death for homosexual males was 42 and for lesbians was 49. Source: Cameron, Playfair, Wellum, " The Longevity of Homosexuals: Before and After the AIDS Epidemic, " Omega Journal of Death and Dying," 1994.

Pedro Zamora, 22, a well-known AIDS educator and a cast member of "The Real World" on MTV, died of complications from AIDS today at Mercy Hospital in Miami. Partly because he was among few young people speaking out about AIDS, partly because of his heart throb looks and easy manner, Zamora became one of the most sought-after speakers on the disease after he tested positive for HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, in 1989 at the age of 17. He took his prevention message into American living rooms as a young gay man with HIV on "The Real World." He would tell students that he got the virus through unprotected sex and that he would probably not live to reach 30. Before a television appearance in New York last August, Zamora fell ill with a neurological disorder, progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy, which causes rapid deterioration. He had been hospitalized since October 14th. Source: Mireya Navarro, "Life of 22 years ends, but not before many heard message on AIDS, The New York Times; November 12, 1994.

AIDS became the Leading cause of death among men from 25 to 44 in 1992 (in the U.S.). More than 250,000 people have died from AIDS or AIDS-related causes. About 75% of cases have been reported in the 25-to-44 age group. AIDS is also the leading cause of death in men and women in 79 of 169 American cities with population greater than 100,000. In the northeastern United States, where the rate of infection is higher among intravenous drug users than it is among gay men, the incidence of AIDS continues to rise. Although the AIDS epidemic seems to have stabilized among gay men in some areas of the country, there is evidence of a future second wave in that group, Dr. Jaffe said. He cited recent studies in San Francisco, Denver and Chicago showing an incidence of 2 to 3 % a year for new infections in gay men, a high number. Source: Lawrence K. Altman, " AIDS is now the leading killer of Americans from 25 to 44," The New York Times; January 31, 1995.

Nick Mattsson, as a gay man in his late 20's, has never really known love or dating outside the shadow of AIDS and, though he knew few sick people, he associated being gay with getting AIDS and dying young. In San Francisco, two gay newspapers refused for a while to carry ads for HIV-negative groups, and in New York, there is much eye-rolling, if not outright hostility. "My lover was like: 'What are you going to talk about,'" said one participant whose partner is HIV-positive. "Long-term retirement plans? 401(K)'s?" Despite optimism over available treatments, there will be no cure anytime soon. And with evidence that infection rates are rising among young men, the focus can no longer be solely on people with HIV. There is only one way, the thinking goes, to prevent another generation of gay men from dying.

Troy Masters, the publisher of LGNY, a biweekly lesbian and gay newspaper in New York, who is HIV-positive, said "It (is) cool to be HIV-positive and it shouldn't be." Some will live, and others will die long before their time, and that the worries of men who do not have HIV are valid. Some of the (gay) men (coming into clinics or support groups) came in because they had a drug or alcohol problem, others because they were having unsafe sex, others because they just needed to talk about their lives as gay men and could not afford therapy.

Mattsson joined a group because he recognized that the sex he was having was unsafe and "out of control." Marc Davis, an equities analyst who is 29, joined (a group) largely because he was having an escalating problem with cocaine. Ben Stilp, 26, the communications director for the Lesbian and Gay Community Services Center, said he joined a group as a result of two strains in his life: a problem with drugs and, for the first time, meeting men who were infected. One, who became a good friend, was only 30. "This was going to be a battle for my life. And I would have to change some fundamental things about my life," said Stilp. Source: Ian Fisher, "To be young, gay, healthy...and alienated; New support Groups for the HIV-negative handle guilt, fear and isolation, The New York Times; July 14,1996

Life expectancy for a 20 year old gay or bisexual man is 8 to 20 years less than all men. The authors estimate that " nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently age 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday." Source: Hogg. RS., Strathdee, SA., Craib, KJP., O'Shaughnessy, MV., Montainer, JSG., Schechter, MT., " Modeling the impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men," International Journal of Epidemiology, Vol. 26, No. 3, 1997, pp. 657-61.

In 1998, another study using four contemporary databases suggested that homosexual activity may be associated with a lifespan shortened by 20 to 30 years. Source: Cameron, P., Cameron, K., Playfair, WL., " Does Homosexual Activity Shorten Life? ", Psychological Reports, 1998, 83, pp. 847-66.

Conclusion:

Study after study reveals that homosexuality, whether male or female, can take anywhere from 10, 20 to 30 years off of someone's lifespan. With all the attention on smoking, which the National Cancer Institute says takes from 7 to 10 years off someone's life, why not the same human outcry on homosexuality? Here's a behavior that's killing people 2 to 3 times the rate of smoking, yet nobody seems to care. In fact, we are encouraging and affirming individuals into the "gay" lifestyle. If you truly love someone, you would steer them away from self-destructive behaviors, rather than towards them, shouldn't you? Homosexuals need our tough love, not blind love, the kind of love that is going to love them no matter what they say and do. We must extend that helping hand and say " I think your worth saving, let's work on it together.....""

Source



It is laughable for you to suggest that the negative health consequences of homosexual behaviour should be dismissed on the grounds that there are other things in life that are risky. Even for you this is really stretching it.



Who said anything about criminalising? I personally believe people should be able to do whatever they want in the privacy of their bedroom with whomever they want provided that person is a consenting adult. I draw the line at idiots who blindly advocate a lifestyle that is EXTREMELY unsafe dismissing glaring statistic data and plenty of empirical evidence to advance their position on faith.

You are absolutely no different in your approach to this issue then the creationists you earlier chastised for ignoring very strong evidence to support their preconceived position.



First off, homos do not frighten me.

Secondly, I am entitled to disagree with the lifestyle choice and your points in defence of gay sex seem to revolve around assertions of heresy rather then anything substantial.

   

Grain is in da house....morning Grain

   

The source being a website whose mission statement isfor the record.

   

If it's not the Bible then you can only oppose homosexuality based on hatred. This seems to the crux of the point of those who defend or advocate the lifestyle.

I ask you this:

For the record, as a self identified medical professional, do you believe that the biology of the human being is currently sufficiently designed for gay sex?



If those "communities" have a lower life expectancy can I hate them too?

Oh but we do examine them. From the WCB who keeps occupational profiles and works with employers in industries it targets as high risk to Statscan itself where the information is used to tweak government programs there is a constant lifestyle review in progress for virtually every thing you can think of with one glaring notable exception. Do you disagree with this?

Considering the legitimised and government sanctioned rethoric spewed by the anti smoking jihadists I suppose it is safe to say that you can hate them.



Deprogramming Homosexuals



Dispel BTW 1: Smoking shortens life span 10 years, British study finds



Please post the data to support your point.



Take any hundred homosexuals and compare them with any 100 heterosexuals in the same age/occupation and you know the homosexuals are consuming healthcare dollars in a disproportionate amount. How can you be a medical practitioner and not see this?

If I can post actual statistical evidence to this point will you agree?



Fair enough.



On my word religion does not form the basis nor influence in any manner of my objection to homosexuality.



I doubt you can even find any research to prove homosexual sex is safe so I would suggest that you are perhaps the one arguing on faith and lacking in research.

Another angle is that the overwhelming majority of same sex pedophiles are homosexual. Considering those identifying themselves as gay make up less then 2% of the general population they alarmingly constitute almost half of all sexual predators against children.

   

Seconded. If that's the best you can come up with, I'm not going to argue any more.

   

Good morning.

But not for long....heading for the beach soon.

   

Is that how you try to save face?

Because I post source information that quotes from a variety of studies you'll dismiss all their data outright because of the reasons behind the poster?

In other words, if a Liberal quotes a Conservative think tank that takes an anti war position I can now legitimately dismiss outright the entire comment as the liberal himself is biased?

Funny how the prohomosexual crowd are really the ones incapable of debating this issue without bringing either God, the Bible or hate into it.

   

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