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You're just wrong Rev. You know it too, that's what is so sad about all of this. Here's some examples of what's wrong with your side's take on all of this...just a few:

1) In October, the mayor of Detroit and the governor of Michigan joined forces to reject a $200 million gift offered by philanthropist Robert Thompson. Thompson proposed to help build 15 small charter high schools in Detroit, whose students consistently score below those of other Michigan residents. But after the Detroit teachers staged a one-day walkout to protest the charter plan, Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick and Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm scurried away from the deal.

Detroit spends, for the record, more than all but 9 percent of Michigan school districts. Only 3.4 percent of Michigan's districts graduate a smaller proportion of high school students. Detroit students score near the bottom on statewide achievement tests. Both Kirkpatrick and Granholm (a Canadian from BC by the way) are Democrats.

2) Paul E. Peterson of Harvard reported in 2003 the results of a randomized study examining the effect of school vouchers on African American youngsters in New York. The study began in 1997, when the School Choice Scholarships Foundation offered vouchers to 1,200 New York City public school students in kindergarten through fourth grade. The scholarships were worth $1,400 annually. The students who received the vouchers were similar in every way to those who did not. Eighty percent came from single-parent families. The results were impressive. Students who received vouchers scored one grade level higher in reading and math than students in public school. Democrats and the teachers unions loudly protest the concept of vouchers. Why is that Blair?

3) Florida's "A+" program provides that students in schools performing poorly in two out of four years get a voucher to attend a different public school or a private school. When the Manhattan Institute studied the effect of the program, it found that schools facing the lash of competition made much greater gains than schools permitted to plod on in the old way. A Harvard study of schools in Michigan, Arizona and Wisconsin has found the same thing. Amazing! Competition works better than monopoly. Adam Smith: Call your office.



4) The Cato Institute looked at prices of private schools in a number of cities around the country and compared their tuitions with what the government spends on education. In the District of Columbia, for example, the government spends $11,009 per pupil. Forty-five of the District's private schools charged less than that per year, and 39 charged $5,000 or less. In Denver, the government spends $9,919 to educate each pupil per year. Only six of the city's 91 private elementary schools charge that much. The median private tuition is $3,528. Sorta blows holes in your funding issues there don't you think? Well, any SMART person would think so anyway.

Those examples are not ideological platitudes, like most of your post was Blair. Those are cold hard facts. They depict much of what's wrong with the education system in this country and I suspect if one looks long and hard enough you'll find the very same things going on in Canada. Either you are part of the solution, or you are part of the problem. Clearly sir, YOU are part of the problem. Now if you'll just get out of the way we'll get this thing fixed rather nicely. Oh and btw...my comments that the nun should have beaten you and made you shut up? That wasn't meant across the board...I meant it in YOUR case specifically. Stupid nun...shoulda used a bigger stick.

   

Yeah, Wing...I know how you think. You explained very carefully how people like that Nun should be encouraged and implied that you would like to see me suffer from violence many times over the years. Good luck with that.

In 3 of your 4 examples you mentioned private schools (which traditionally use modern teaching structures and have access to better materials and support staff; and more money, which can give a kid access to more modern materials and make sure they aren't arriving at school pre-occupied with getting clothed and fed. Gee that solved the problem, according to your own statements...at least for the few students that got access to those private schools and/or received more money.

In other words you proved my point...supply the funding, even in the existing school system, and the marks go up. Funny how that works.

I don't know the politics of the situation down there, Wing. I don't follow Detroit municipal politics much. I'll bet that at least some of teachers weren't protesting those few lucky kids getting that money, bet they were protesting all of those kids not getting that money. Funding programs lke that have been known to undermine the chances for kids all getting an equal chance. In fact something else I noticed about the programs is that a kid has to do poorly to gain access to them. That means a kid that plugs along and works hard despite difficult conditions is punished for their hard work, for taking an interest in learning. Hmmm...back to that nun and her yardstick again.

I do follow your federal politics. Didn't the Cato institute say something about Bush's policies not improving schools? Didn't the same basic program that Bush just foisted on you federally lead to a scandal in Texas...schools cooking the books to ensure that they got funding? Yeah, I do already know the answers to that. See I had some of those young, leftist teachers too, not just nuns, so I learned how to look things up.

You see, you say want kids to do better, learn more. You want to do that by cutting the funding available to them. To prove your point, you say that kids who get more money do better. I don't know what schools you went to, Wing, but I'm guessing they didn't spend a lot of time on logic and problem-solving skills.

   

What, are you brain dead or are you just trying to prove that you don't get it Blair? The private schools get LESS money not more. Less. Funding doesn't need to be increased, people need to get fired. Wasteful idiots need to be prosecuted. And the ideologues such as yourself need to be shown the door. You not only don't know much about Detroit politics Blair, you don't know much of anything when it comes to this subject.

Come on...this is personal with you, not intellectual. It couldn't be. Whoever is giving you your marching orders is doing you a disservice man...because I KNOW that you are smarter than that.

Blair, I attended Michigan on a Ford Foundation Scholarship ok? Back when that really meant something to get that scholarship. I'll compare my educational background with yours any time you feel like it's something you might wanna do. Bring your prozac...you're gonna feel mighty silly. People like you want to numb the minds of kids to everything...there's nothing analytical about that at all. There are two sides to everything...something even I can acknowledge. Not with you...anyone who doesn't see it your way is an idiot, according to Lord Blair. Get over yourself boy.

   

Wing said

There was nothing about money in that part of the sentence. There was reference to modern teaching methods, something that does not match your three r's pholsophy ,and the fact that most private schools have access to better materials and support staff.

In the next part of the sentence, I said Your own examples prove both of those points.

As for whether private schools spend more or less than public schools...let me see, private schools often get donations from former students, especially for capital projects; they tend to (and I really don't know about Detroit, but this is a documented tendency) have non-unionised janitorial staff and support staff who do not live in the area and are not part of the community; their buildings were not allowed to deteriorate to the point where major repairs are needed on a regular basis, so their capital and upkeep costs are lower; they do not have to spend as much dealing with social problems; many do not supply texts.

It's like my parents having lower bills than me each month...of course they do, their houses are paid off and they have ammassed a lot of things that we are still buying. I don't begrudge them that...they paid for their houses and their stuff...but I also don't expect to be compared on that basis with them because our situations are different. My parents, being reasonable and intelligent people, understand that.

   

"Let's be honest, WHY should Americans learn about Canada??"
Thats pretty sad hearing that. I guess you want your generation too, to be just as unknowledgeable. I wonder if the whole world should stop learning about America? Not only do Canada and the USA have a large history. But based on that, that is enough reason to know about your friendly ally. If you really need an answer to your question, that is very embarassing.

   

The thing is its very easy not to learn about a country like England or Canada or Austrailia. But we all have to learn about the states because its shoved in our faces everyday. Oh well. The price you pay for living in this day and age.

   

It's also very easy to learn about Canada (or England or Austrailia), Evan. More than that, there is no reason not to learn about your closest neighbour, largest trading partner, and solid ally.

It's a sad statement on the mindset of some of our neighbours to the south, including their president, that such a question would even come up.

   

Does it really matter whether Americans learn about Canada or not? It would be nice, granted, but those Americans who choose to educate themselves will, and those who don't, it doesn't matter. Complaining about American ignorance of Canada just because we feel "ignored" is futile, not to mention foolish.

Canadians generally learn about America through the American influence in the media we receive or necessity in trade and travel. Very little of it is taught in our schools, why should it be any different for American schools?

Lighten up people.....if an American thinks if he can make a nice Sunday drive from Toronto to Vancouver for the afternoon...no skin off your back.

   

If Americans know little to nothing about one of their closests neighbors. Do really think they have the foggiest clue about anywhere else in the world. Yet most of what they do has a direct impact on the rest of the planet. That doesn't worry anyone in the least? These people are making decisions that affect us all and they don't know diddly about anything beyond their border and that is okay with you?

   

tsk tsk Chrissy.

You make it sound as if no planes actually fly out of the United States. Do you really accept the stereotype of ignorant, uncultured, Bud-swilling rednecks? (PGH will never forgive me) If so, then you know even less about America than Americans do about you.

I've met many Americans who know more about our politicians, our history, and our land than some Canadians do...not bad for someone who is not immersed in it everyday. And Americans are one of the most educated groups on world events in the world. Granted....Rick Mercer can always squirrel out the ones who don't, and it makes for GREAT fun, but honestly, educate yourself before you make these statements.

   

Boy you must be meeting with some interesting Americans. The Americans I have met with or chatted with usually but not always either have the opinion that they don't need to know a thing about Canada or anyone else for that matter. Isn't it only 20% of american have a passport? Baring the very few I have been told they don't know anything about Canada at all. I say again you must be around some very interesting Americans. Send a few of them my way will ya?

   

Living on the border, my company does a lot of work in the states. I work with Americans from New York State down to Florida. For the most part...they either know, or are interested to know about Canada. I can't think of a single one with the opinion that they don't need to know a thing about Canada. I can't fathom WHERE you are meeting these Americans who "usually" have that opinion.

   

Stick around you'll meet a few. You might try reading some of the past posts on this site. Oh yes try visiting a few more Canadian boards you'll find them there to. That would be a few of the online gentlemen I have met.

   

Ah yes...

The impressions we can get from a forum.

Try this....imagine being an American and browsing over this site. Thread titles such as:
An intelligent American???
How Disgusted I am with America
Come to the friendly US, end up god knows where.
Canada VS Amerikastan

Comments such as:
Americans know little to nothing about one of their closests neighbors. Do really think they have the foggiest clue about anywhere else in the world.~ChrissyP
Screw the US~hockeyguy3399

Believe me...most intelligent Americans wouldn't have bothered to stick around here. I say most because I do notice a couple of intelligent posters who represent their country quite well. Other than that...the rest would just be trolls and the dregs of society.

Some of the poorly veiled disgust by a few of the Canadians here would be enough to get their hackles up, and that just starts a flame war of whose country is better than whose.

Put yourself in their place. You must have visited American boards where the same tone was set toward Canadians....after all, there are generally fucktards on both sides (Can I say that here?) Tell me you wouldn't get the same attitude back at them.

   

No I wouldn't. I don't feel the need to defend my country to anyone. You don't like Canada fine. There is no law saying you have to. I don't go struting around thinking the sun rises and sets on Canada's ass. I love my country and I will never leave it (except on vacation). Besides why would I go to an American site and get on their ass for bashing Canada. Don't like us fine but at least look beyond your border eh? (and not necessarily Canada)

   

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