BIG BLUE WAVE PRO-LIFE BLOGBURST
Indelible @ Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:12 pm
so if science can't determine precisely when life begins (or when it ends either for that matter) then how do you define life? where can you turn for an answer?
Tman1 @ Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:16 pm
Dayseed Dayseed:
Why does one get to make the decision for the pair? It's her body. Ultimately, the fetus isn't growing inside the man, just the woman. It boils down to a simple biological fact.
Yes, that two biological beings are needed in order to create life, not one. Sure it's the women's body and she has to go through all the pains but what about the males pain? If it's the women's choice and the guy wants the child but she doesn't is the pain of having his child killed less so than wearing the child itself? If she doesn't want the child, give it up for adoption.
USCAdad @ Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:18 pm
Indelible Indelible:
$1:
Indelible wrote:
ok so that doesn't tell me anything about why you hate christianity
I actually don't hate Christianity, just what passes for it.
ok so that doesn't tell me anything about why you hate christianity
I actually don't hate Christianity, just what passes for it.
such as?
Well, let's see. The amen pew, hypocricy, moral thuggery, theocratic asperations, tv evangelism, those that keep tv evangelists in business, calvinism, anti-intelectualism, prudery, dockers, minivans, casseroles and that's just the run of the mill stuff.
Especially wonderful things: running guns under bibles, church finance, persecuting gays pagans or anyone else not exactly like themselves including the competing denomination down the street. Paul. Jeeze, I could go on for a while but I'm making myself sick. (the smell of church basements would be right up there too.)
I'm encouraged to see American christianity start to move beyond this. I'm interested in "Red Letter Christians" and to a lesser degree the emergent church, again christians doing aesthetics is usually a recipe for disaster.
Aside: Can I premtively request a spleler medal?
Indelible @ Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:40 pm
$1:
Well, let's see. The amen pew,
what's that?
$1:
hypocricy, moral thuggery, theocratic asperations, tv evangelism, those that keep tv evangelists in business, calvinism,
sure there may be lots of hypocritical people who call themselves christian but does that mean that that makes all of christianity corrupt? not in the least. what moral thuggery do you mean? do you mean that in conjunction of the persecution of gays, like perhaps a christian saying "you have to be a certain way or you're going to hell"? well it does say in the bible that the wage of sin is death, but it is equally unchristian to reject sinful people, or to condemn them. truly christian people will try to help these people in any way they can, not by using ultimatums. what do you mean by theocratic asperations? i don't have a problem with TV evangelism as long as it is truthful, if a screaming type of tv evangelist comes on i switch the channel right away. CALVINISM! the biggest load of hogwash we've seen before W. became president. yeah right, everything we do is pre determined, and God has already decided who's going to heaven and who's going to hell. yeah that's a biblical teaching right there. what's the point then of the great commission? why try and be a better person. calvanism annoys me too. it emphasizes an either/or attitude with regards to theology that is just wrong.
$1:
anti-intelectualism
???? please explain
$1:
dockers, minivans, casseroles
the most evil inventions mankind has ever seen
$1:
Especially wonderful things: running guns under bibles, church finance, persecuting gays pagans or anyone else not exactly like themselves including the competing denomination down the street. Paul.
dunno bout the guns. church finance isn't somehting i know too much about except to say that it might be a neccesary 'evil'? dunno what you think is so negative about church finance. already touched on gays and pagans, though i have to say that conformity is something that i find is overly valued in conservative christianity, but is much less pervasive in other christian churches. IMO churches that denounce other denominations are jsut wasting time and effort. the differences between them are petty anyways. their focus ought to be reaching out to lost people. paul the apostle?
$1:
I'm interested in "Red Letter Christians" and to a lesser degree the emergent church, again christians doing aesthetics is usually a recipe for disaster.
what do you call a red letter christian? what do u mean by christians doing aesthetics is a recipe for disaster?
USCAdad @ Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:59 pm
Indelible Indelible:
$1:
Well, let's see. The amen pew,
what's that?
It's usually in the first few rows. Generally folk that make a great show of piety, something along the lines of praying in the street rather than the closet, and try to lord it over the rest of the congregation... this is hypocricy central.
$1:
hypocricy, moral thuggery, theocratic asperations, tv evangelism,
sure there may be lots of hypocritical people who call themselves christian but does that mean that that makes all of christianity corrupt?
$1:
those that keep tv evangelists in business, calvinism,
sure there may be lots of hypocritical people who call themselves christian but does that mean that that makes all of christianity corrupt?
Of course this is really true of any group of people... even the NDP (I think of myself as my own utopic version of red tory.) I've known some great souls. Of course this is true.
$1:
not in the least. what moral thuggery do you mean? do you mean that in conjunction of the persecution of gays, like perhaps a christian saying "you have to be a certain way or you're going to hell"? well it does say in the bible that the wage of sin is death, but it is equally unchristian to reject sinful people, or to condemn them. truly christian people will try to help these people in any way they can, not by using ultimatums.
I don't believe in a hierarchy of sins. Everyone sins, we just choose which ones are ours. The bible also has a few verses about the dangers of judging others and directs us to give the coat as well as the shirt off our backs if asked... way more than spare change.
$1:
what do you mean by theocratic asperations?
The desire to have a christian society that supports christian views rather than a society that is open (within reason for the jihadis) and provides freedom for all. Don't want to marry someone of the same gender? Don't. Don't take it out on the kid that has two moms.
$1:
i don't have a problem with TV evangelism as long as it is truthful, if a screaming type of tv evangelist comes on i switch the channel right away. CALVINISM! the biggest load of hogwash we've seen before W. became president. yeah right, everything we do is pre determined, and God has already decided who's going to heaven and who's going to hell. yeah that's a biblical teaching right there. what's the point then of the great commission? why try and be a better person. calvanism annoys me too. it emphasizes an either/or attitude with regards to theology that is just wrong.
In addition to the lovely things listed is also a belief that God rewards his followers with riches and success. Like no one has ever read Job before.
$1:
$1:
anti-intelectualism
???? please explain
It's usually couched in terms of heavenly wisdom vs. earthly wisdom. What you end up with is a distrust of education and a propensity for intelligent design.
$1:
$1:
dockers, minivans, casseroles
the most evil inventions mankind has ever seen
Aren't they? Just awful.
$1:
$1:
Especially wonderful things: running guns under bibles, church finance, persecuting gays pagans or anyone else not exactly like themselves including the competing denomination down the street. Paul.
dunno bout the guns. church finance isn't somehting i know too much about except to say that it might be a neccesary 'evil'? dunno what you think is so negative about church finance. already touched on gays and pagans, though i have to say that conformity is something that i find is overly valued in conservative christianity, but is much less pervasive in other christian churches. IMO churches that denounce other denominations are jsut wasting time and effort. the differences between them are petty anyways. their focus ought to be reaching out to lost people. paul the apostle?
I had a family member that was a missionary who was involved in running guns from Guatemala under Reagan. He was a missionary and used the bibles to hide the guns. Same organization I believe, it's been a while, that got booted out of Venezuala recently.
Church finance: not everyone involved with religion is a "good guy". Church finance refers to credit companies that sell credit to young churches to build. Again, I had a family member doing this (I don't interact with large parts of my family any longer). They're crooked and just get naive folk screwed on credit. These are the truly evil people. And yes, I'm not fond of the Apostle Paul.
$1:
I'm interested in "Red Letter Christians" and to a lesser degree the emergent church, again christians doing aesthetics is usually a recipe for disaster.
what do you call a red letter christian? what do u mean by christians doing aesthetics is a recipe for disaster?[/quote]
Red Letter Christians are those that prioritize the words of Jesus that are highlighted in red in certain editions. Aesthetics, see dockers and the like, listen to Amy Grant. From my understanding the emergents are trying to borrow some of the pomp and circumstance of the Catholics and Orthodox to give their services a little special old world feel. Nastalgia for something that's not really theirs.
Indelible @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:08 am
arrrrgh you replied inside the quote, that makes it harder for me to reply!! 
EDIT: what the? when i submitted this it changed back to normal!!!!!
Banff @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:10 am
USCAdad :
I understand what you say about theocratic garb and raising children under it
My wife and I argue a little about it because I think trying influence such a little mind with so many stories is downright harmful . Imagine telling young impressionable minds about Caine killing Able because Able got to be the shepherd or Job getting his life screwed up because the big guy wanted to test his faith and did it because he really liked him or Ruth getting shafted and her sons killed because she didn't stay on the land the big guy gave her or That Jesus really did get pissed off and threw things in the square or David throwing rocks at a big guys head or Asking dad to bring his son up the mountain as a sacrificial blood offering only to stop him and tell him he was just joking .etc etc
What kind of message can kids get from stuff like this is probably exactly the way I wrote it . The problem is most if not all churchs ship the kids off and out from the sermon but they end up going to the Sunday or Shabbot school lessons and told about it anyway . I'm fine when kids read Proverbs or Psalms because one tells them how to live and prosper and the other is a place for children to reflect on a large assortment of human emotions . It must have been hard being a PK
USCAdad @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:12 am
Indelible Indelible:
arrrrgh you replied inside the quote, that makes it harder for me to reply!!
EDIT: what the? when i submitted this it changed back to normal!!!!!
EDIT: what the? when i submitted this it changed back to normal!!!!!
Sorry, I had a few to many quote boxes. It drives me crazy too. I edited and fixed them... sorry.
Indelible @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:13 am
$1:
USCAdad :
I understand what you say about theocratic garb and raising children under it
My wife and I argue a little about it because I think trying influence such a little mind with so many stories is downright harmful . Imagine telling young impressionable minds about Caine killing Able because Able got to be the shepherd or Job getting his life screwed up because the big guy wanted to test his faith and did it because he really liked him or Ruth getting shafted and her sons killed because she didn't stay on the land the big guy gave her or That Jesus really did get pissed off and threw things in the square or David throwing rocks at a big guys head or Asking dad to bring his son up the mountain as a sacrificial blood offering only to stop him and tell him he was just joking .etc etc
What kind of message can kids get from stuff like this is probably exactly the way I wrote it . The problem is most if not all churchs ship the kids off and out from the sermon but they end up going to the Sunday or Shabbot school lessons and told about it anyway . I'm fine when kids read Proverbs or Psalms because one tells them how to live and prosper and the other is a place for children to reflect on a large assortment of human emotions . It must have been hard being a PK
I understand what you say about theocratic garb and raising children under it
My wife and I argue a little about it because I think trying influence such a little mind with so many stories is downright harmful . Imagine telling young impressionable minds about Caine killing Able because Able got to be the shepherd or Job getting his life screwed up because the big guy wanted to test his faith and did it because he really liked him or Ruth getting shafted and her sons killed because she didn't stay on the land the big guy gave her or That Jesus really did get pissed off and threw things in the square or David throwing rocks at a big guys head or Asking dad to bring his son up the mountain as a sacrificial blood offering only to stop him and tell him he was just joking .etc etc
What kind of message can kids get from stuff like this is probably exactly the way I wrote it . The problem is most if not all churchs ship the kids off and out from the sermon but they end up going to the Sunday or Shabbot school lessons and told about it anyway . I'm fine when kids read Proverbs or Psalms because one tells them how to live and prosper and the other is a place for children to reflect on a large assortment of human emotions . It must have been hard being a PK
i know it wasn't directred at me but i think in most christian sunday schools they don't start off with stuff like that, they teach kids about God's love
USCAdad @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:25 am
Banff Banff:
It must have been hard being a PK
Thanks for the sympathy. Seeing all the duplicity was really the only damaging part. Don't yell and scream getting ready for church, drive like a madman because you're late, then put on a fake smile and tell all your friends how wonderful life is. Kids see this a few times and they figure things out.
Banff @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:32 am
Indelible Indelible:
$1:
USCAdad :
I understand what you say about theocratic garb and raising children under it
My wife and I argue a little about it because I think trying influence such a little mind with so many stories is downright harmful . Imagine telling young impressionable minds about Caine killing Able because Able got to be the shepherd or Job getting his life screwed up because the big guy wanted to test his faith and did it because he really liked him or Ruth getting shafted and her sons killed because she didn't stay on the land the big guy gave her or That Jesus really did get pissed off and threw things in the square or David throwing rocks at a big guys head or Asking dad to bring his son up the mountain as a sacrificial blood offering only to stop him and tell him he was just joking .etc etc
What kind of message can kids get from stuff like this is probably exactly the way I wrote it . The problem is most if not all churchs ship the kids off and out from the sermon but they end up going to the Sunday or Shabbot school lessons and told about it anyway . I'm fine when kids read Proverbs or Psalms because one tells them how to live and prosper and the other is a place for children to reflect on a large assortment of human emotions . It must have been hard being a PK
I understand what you say about theocratic garb and raising children under it
My wife and I argue a little about it because I think trying influence such a little mind with so many stories is downright harmful . Imagine telling young impressionable minds about Caine killing Able because Able got to be the shepherd or Job getting his life screwed up because the big guy wanted to test his faith and did it because he really liked him or Ruth getting shafted and her sons killed because she didn't stay on the land the big guy gave her or That Jesus really did get pissed off and threw things in the square or David throwing rocks at a big guys head or Asking dad to bring his son up the mountain as a sacrificial blood offering only to stop him and tell him he was just joking .etc etc
What kind of message can kids get from stuff like this is probably exactly the way I wrote it . The problem is most if not all churchs ship the kids off and out from the sermon but they end up going to the Sunday or Shabbot school lessons and told about it anyway . I'm fine when kids read Proverbs or Psalms because one tells them how to live and prosper and the other is a place for children to reflect on a large assortment of human emotions . It must have been hard being a PK
i know it wasn't directred at me but i think in most christian sunday schools they don't start off with stuff like that, they teach kids about God's love
yeah this is true but the amount which slips through outways the love and the rest is introduced far to early especially when the teacher is a teenager and sometimes not even a teenager (younger) Children in sermons should be illegal and sermons shouldn't follow the little minds into the class . I've seen it happen in every religion .
Indelible @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:36 am
$1:
It's usually in the first few rows. Generally folk that make a great show of piety, something along the lines of praying in the street rather than the closet, and try to lord it over the rest of the congregation... this is hypocricy central.
what if it is genuine? i don't see people lording anything over the rest of hte congregation.
$1:
I don't believe in a hierarchy of sins. Everyone sins, we just choose which ones are ours. The bible also has a few verses about the dangers of judging others and directs us to give the coat as well as the shirt off our backs if asked... way more than spare change.
neither do i. and what you said is true.
$1:
The desire to have a christian society that supports christian views rather than a society that is open (within reason for the jihadis) and provides freedom for all. Don't want to marry someone of the same gender? Don't. Don't take it out on the kid that has two moms.
again, i don't see the desire for a christian society and condemnation going hand in hand. of course everyone has the freedon to do whatever they want to (even murder), this is free will, given by God. that doesn't absolve them from consequences, both earthly and eternal. this won't be taken away in a christian society.
$1:
In addition to the lovely things listed is also a belief that God rewards his followers with riches and success. Like no one has ever read Job before.
well, the second part of this teaching (which is not without value) is that when God increases riches for his people (a biblical teaching) the people should share this new wealth with those who don't have enough. this, sadly is often missed, hence the televangelist in expensive suits with gold rings on every finger.
$1:
It's usually couched in terms of heavenly wisdom vs. earthly wisdom. What you end up with is a distrust of education and a propensity for intelligent design.
not sure what to make of this
$1:
I had a family member that was a missionary who was involved in running guns from Guatemala under Reagan. He was a missionary and used the bibles to hide the guns. Same organization I believe, it's been a while, that got booted out of Venezuala recently.
Church finance: not everyone involved with religion is a "good guy". Church finance refers to credit companies that sell credit to young churches to build. Again, I had a family member doing this (I don't interact with large parts of my family any longer). They're crooked and just get naive folk screwed on credit. These are the truly evil people. And yes, I'm not fond of the Apostle Paul.
Church finance: not everyone involved with religion is a "good guy". Church finance refers to credit companies that sell credit to young churches to build. Again, I had a family member doing this (I don't interact with large parts of my family any longer). They're crooked and just get naive folk screwed on credit. These are the truly evil people. And yes, I'm not fond of the Apostle Paul.
guns ahould have no part in christianity. simple as that. as for finances, all i can say is that people make mistakes, and i don't think it's fair to blame christianity for it. what's wrong with paul?
$1:
Red Letter Christians are those that prioritize the words of Jesus that are highlighted in red in certain editions. Aesthetics, see dockers and the like, listen to Amy Grant. From my understanding the emergents are trying to borrow some of the pomp and circumstance of the Catholics and Orthodox to give their services a little special old world feel. Nastalgia for something that's not really theirs.
well, you know, the gospel is just a little important in the whole scheme of things......but i understand what you're getting at. you want a more holistic approach tothe bible. you are right for wanting that. this is better than teaching only the red letters, thought they are the most important part. i don't get the nostalgia thing
USCAdad @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:01 am
I think I'm running out of steam and ready for bed. Excuse me if this post is a bit lame.
Indelible Indelible:
$1:
It's usually in the first few rows. Generally folk that make a great show of piety, something along the lines of praying in the street rather than the closet, and try to lord it over the rest of the congregation... this is hypocricy central.
what if it is genuine? i don't see people lording anything over the rest of hte congregation.
Well, it's Christ's teaching not mine. I've never encountered a situation where these folk were the real deal.
$1:
$1:
The desire to have a christian society that supports christian views rather than a society that is open (within reason for the jihadis) and provides freedom for all. Don't want to marry someone of the same gender? Don't. Don't take it out on the kid that has two moms.
again, i don't see the desire for a christian society and condemnation going hand in hand. of course everyone has the freedon to do whatever they want to (even murder), this is free will, given by God. that doesn't absolve them from consequences, both earthly and eternal. this won't be taken away in a christian society.
There may be heavenly consequences but religious teachings (apart from some basics like murder and lying under oath) should be kept out of government. The danger is when the pendulum swings. Today there's a call against gay marriage what if the roles were reversed. Would you be happy if you were loved like some are currently loving their neighbor? We don't hate christians just their het ways. Don't feel bad, everyone has to pull a shift at Aphrodite's temple. Just use a lot of lube.
$1:
$1:
In addition to the lovely things listed is also a belief that God rewards his followers with riches and success. Like no one has ever read Job before.
well, the second part of this teaching (which is not without value) is that when God increases riches for his people (a biblical teaching) the people should share this new wealth with those who don't have enough. this, sadly is often missed, hence the televangelist in expensive suits with gold rings on every finger.
This is true. In Calvinism, your wealth is proof of your piety. No wealth? Must be a sinner. Remember how many times Job's "friends" begged him to just repent for whatever the heck he did?
[/quote]
guns ahould have no part in christianity. simple as that. as for finances, all i can say is that people make mistakes, and i don't think it's fair to blame christianity for it. what's wrong with paul?
That's not it. These people are loan sharks. They try to get churches (or at least they did) beyond their means. Paul is entirely to authoritarian for me. I don't ascribe divine inspiration to the gospels. Christian is different than Paulist or Pauline Christian for me. I think they're worth while texts. I think they give a perspective and commentary on Christ, but I don't believe they're infallible or have the weight that most Christians would give them. Paul is one step below the Gospels for me.
$1:
i don't get the nostalgia thing
They're trying to provide a more spiritual experience by providing bells and smells. I've never actually attended one of these shindigs, I've just been reading about them and find them interesting. Are you familiar with the split in the Baptist church a while back ago, late seventies I believe?
Anywho, I'll have to catch your reply later, I'm off to bed and have a huge day ahead of me tomorrow.
Indelible @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:07 am
and i'm going to have to reply later cuz i gotta be at work by 7AM, it's quarter past 2 already.
Dayseed @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:19 am
Tman1 Tman1:
Dayseed Dayseed:
However, I'll say to you and others who would limit the rights a woman has on her own body, "Hands off."
What about the "thing" growing inside her..."hands off"?
Too bad so sad for the fetus. It needs her body to live, whereas she can live quite fine on her own without the fetus. Given those parameters, the woman's right wins out.
And to whomever said we eat fertilized eggs everyday; chicken eggs sold in the store aren't fertilized. Fertilized eggs are called chickens. Jesus.