Women in Islam!
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hurley_108 @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:55 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
hurley_108 hurley_108:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
First off, you need to find a translation that is as close to Arabic as possible. Better yet, learn Arabic and read the koran in Arabic. I did.
Then why don't you provide your own translation rather than a canned C&P? Since this is a subject in which you're so well versed, I expect you have an Arabic Koran handy and could translate for us that verse in just a few minutes.
I'm not dodging you here and I fully expect Ali to support me on this that there are many concepts and metaphors in Arabic that don't translate into English too well. It's a difficult thing to explain but you don't just read the koran when you read it in Arabic, you feel it. That, IMHO, is a great part of why islam is so compelling is that reading the koran in Arabic is not a mere exploration of writings and facts but an exploration of what mohammed actually felt - it is a very emotional experience that simply does not translate. So when you're looking for a translation you want something that doesn't just state words but also the metaphors and concepts that are presented in the Arabic text.
That is such a dodge.
$1:
hurley_108 hurley_108:
$1:
And laws about public decency that are ignored in about every one-time Christian nation is the best you can come up with? 
The USA, as 'Puritanical' as we are often accused of being is home to perfectly legal nudist camps and many of our public beaches in California (at least) allow full nudity.
The USA, as 'Puritanical' as we are often accused of being is home to perfectly legal nudist camps and many of our public beaches in California (at least) allow full nudity.
Gimme a frikkin break, if breasts are just fine, then why are there such frequent uproars about breastfeeding? And if you were a woman, I'd challenge you to go for a day with no shirt and no bra on. Go to the mall. Go to the supermarket. Walk down the street. See what happens.
Even if you're not arrested, the law is on the books, and I doubt you could report that there was nobody offended by such behaviour.
Things are changing. In California it is now 100% legal to breastfeed in public places and some shopping malls have gotten into trouble for telling women who are breastfeeding to leave. Give it twenty years and breastfeeding will be perfectly acceptable everywhere.
And another dodge. Yea, breastfeeding is legal, but that law had to be enacted to specifically permit is shows the prevailing attitude towards breasts in public, doesn't it? But if a woman were to go bear-breasted out in public, not to a nude beach or nudist colony, without a baby to feed, there'd be some reaction, I guaratee it.
BartSimpson @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:01 am
hurley_108 hurley_108:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
hurley_108 hurley_108:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
First off, you need to find a translation that is as close to Arabic as possible. Better yet, learn Arabic and read the koran in Arabic. I did.
Then why don't you provide your own translation rather than a canned C&P? Since this is a subject in which you're so well versed, I expect you have an Arabic Koran handy and could translate for us that verse in just a few minutes.
I'm not dodging you here and I fully expect Ali to support me on this that there are many concepts and metaphors in Arabic that don't translate into English too well. It's a difficult thing to explain but you don't just read the koran when you read it in Arabic, you feel it. That, IMHO, is a great part of why islam is so compelling is that reading the koran in Arabic is not a mere exploration of writings and facts but an exploration of what mohammed actually felt - it is a very emotional experience that simply does not translate. So when you're looking for a translation you want something that doesn't just state words but also the metaphors and concepts that are presented in the Arabic text.
That is such a dodge.
Ask Ali if he agrees with me on this much. If he says the same will you still call it a dodge?
hurley_108 hurley_108:
$1:
hurley_108 hurley_108:
$1:
And laws about public decency that are ignored in about every one-time Christian nation is the best you can come up with?
The USA, as 'Puritanical' as we are often accused of being is home to perfectly legal nudist camps and many of our public beaches in California (at least) allow full nudity.
The USA, as 'Puritanical' as we are often accused of being is home to perfectly legal nudist camps and many of our public beaches in California (at least) allow full nudity.
Gimme a frikkin break, if breasts are just fine, then why are there such frequent uproars about breastfeeding? And if you were a woman, I'd challenge you to go for a day with no shirt and no bra on. Go to the mall. Go to the supermarket. Walk down the street. See what happens.
Even if you're not arrested, the law is on the books, and I doubt you could report that there was nobody offended by such behaviour.
Things are changing. In California it is now 100% legal to breastfeed in public places and some shopping malls have gotten into trouble for telling women who are breastfeeding to leave. Give it twenty years and breastfeeding will be perfectly acceptable everywhere.
And another dodge. Yea, breastfeeding is legal, but that law had to be enacted to specifically permit is shows the prevailing attitude towards breasts in public, doesn't it? But if a woman were to go bear-breasted out in public, not to a nude beach or nudist colony, without a baby to feed, there'd be some reaction, I guaratee it.
The fact that the law was adopted means nothing to you? That doesn't signify a change in society to you?
Brenda @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:03 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Things are changing.
Everywhere BUT in islam?
BartSimpson @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:12 am
Brenda Brenda:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Things are changing.
Everywhere BUT in islam?
Do you assert that islam is changing? If so, where is this taking place?
Brenda @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:14 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Brenda Brenda:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Things are changing.
Everywhere BUT in islam?
Do you assert that islam is changing? If so, where is this taking place?
How long did Christianity or Catholism take to change? It is still changing, remember? Pope says: no condoms. People do use them. Of course it will change. But not overnight. Nothing changes overnight.
You know, if it wasn't changing, we wouldn't all be screaming: "moderate muslims" and "extremist muslims".
Blue_Nose @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:16 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Do you assert that islam is changing? If so, where is this taking place?
Remember all those "fake" Muslims they mention in the articles you post?
BartSimpson @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:22 am
Brenda Brenda:
You know, if it wasn't changing, we wouldn't all be screaming: "moderate muslims" and "extremist muslims".
True, you are screaming moderate and extremist.
I hear no such distinctions coming from the people whose opinions and actions matter most.
BartSimpson @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:23 am
Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Do you assert that islam is changing? If so, where is this taking place?
Remember all those "fake" Muslims they mention in the articles you post?Link?
Brenda @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:25 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Brenda Brenda:
You know, if it wasn't changing, we wouldn't all be screaming: "moderate muslims" and "extremist muslims".
True, you are screaming moderate and extremist.
I hear no such distinctions coming from the people whose opinions and actions matter most.
No, do you blame them? Jesus, everytime a muslim tries to tell anything here on CKA, everybody knows better. YOU are the one telling they are all the same. Well, fuck you Bart, my neighbours are good people, and I won't let you or anybody else tell me differently. i told you before, don't read a fucking book, go TALK to them! LEARN from them, how they cope with all the bias.
Blue_Nose @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:34 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Do you assert that islam is changing? If so, where is this taking place?
Remember all those "fake" Muslims they mention in the articles you post?Link?
$1:
The so-called “Moderate Muslims” or “Secular Muslims” would like to have their cake and eat it too. They wish to remain Muslims in name only, yet not bother to read the mandates of the Quran or understand the context in which Muhammad foisted his poisonous prophecy upon the world.
Instead of conclusively demonstrating Islam's violent nature from its very inception and moving in another direction with what they can prove is the worthwhile portions of Islam, they have decided to marry an inherently noxious religion with an inherently godless philosophy, secularism. “Secular Islam Summit” was hilarious; a run-down and meaningless show of desperate attempt to salvage a bankrupt and deadly ideology.
Instead of conclusively demonstrating Islam's violent nature from its very inception and moving in another direction with what they can prove is the worthwhile portions of Islam, they have decided to marry an inherently noxious religion with an inherently godless philosophy, secularism. “Secular Islam Summit” was hilarious; a run-down and meaningless show of desperate attempt to salvage a bankrupt and deadly ideology.
I agree, it's ridiculous, but it's hardly exclusive to Islam.
BartSimpson @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:38 am
Brenda Brenda:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Brenda Brenda:
You know, if it wasn't changing, we wouldn't all be screaming: "moderate muslims" and "extremist muslims".
True, you are screaming moderate and extremist.
I hear no such distinctions coming from the people whose opinions and actions matter most.
No, do you blame them? Jesus, everytime a muslim tries to tell anything here on CKA, everybody knows better. YOU are the one telling they are all the same. Well, fuck you Bart, my neighbours are good people, and I won't let you or anybody else tell me differently. i told you before, don't read a fucking book, go TALK to them! LEARN from them, how they cope with all the bias.
I'm glad your neighbors are good people. Now ask them if they renounce the parts of the koran we've been discussing and then ask them what defines a 'moderate' muslim.
And how many people do you know who've been killed by muslims who were posing as so-called moderates?
Blue_Nose @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:41 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
I'm glad your neighbors are good people. Now ask them if they renounce the parts of the koran we've been discussing and then ask them what defines a 'moderate' muslim.
You see, Brenda, Bart knows them better than you do - he can see into their mind through books, and he knows their true feelings. Interacting with someone daily doesn't cut it anymore - you need to meet people through text.
Brenda @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:47 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Brenda Brenda:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Brenda Brenda:
You know, if it wasn't changing, we wouldn't all be screaming: "moderate muslims" and "extremist muslims".
True, you are screaming moderate and extremist.
I hear no such distinctions coming from the people whose opinions and actions matter most.
No, do you blame them? Jesus, everytime a muslim tries to tell anything here on CKA, everybody knows better. YOU are the one telling they are all the same. Well, fuck you Bart, my neighbours are good people, and I won't let you or anybody else tell me differently. i told you before, don't read a fucking book, go TALK to them! LEARN from them, how they cope with all the bias.
I'm glad your neighbors are good people. Now ask them if they renounce the parts of the koran we've been discussing and then ask them what defines a 'moderate' muslim.
And how many people do you know who've been killed by muslims who were posing as so-called moderates?
I know no one who is killed by "so called moderates". I know the extremist-muslim groups here are watched for by the police, or what ever units they have for that.
I have been discussing this issues with them, who or even what do you think I am? Do you really think I yell something out of the blue? They have been crying in my arms when 9-11 happened, and when it turned out to be muslims they cried even harder. When Theo van Gogh was killed here in Amsterdam, they have been crying WHY AGAIN it was an extreme-muslim, and how that would effect them. (meaning the bias towards the muslim society)
They don't like it! Geesh, they are humans, Bart.
BartSimpson @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:54 am
Brenda Brenda:
I know no one who is killed by "so called moderates".
I do.
Brenda Brenda:
I know the extremist-muslim groups here are watched for by the police, or what ever units they have for that.
I have been discussing this issues with them, who or even what do you think I am? Do you really think I yell something out of the blue? They have been crying in my arms when 9-11 happened, and they turned out to be muslims they cried even harder. When Theo van Gogh was killed here in Amsterdam, they have been crying WHY AGAIN it was an extreme-muslim, and how that would effect them.
I have been discussing this issues with them, who or even what do you think I am? Do you really think I yell something out of the blue? They have been crying in my arms when 9-11 happened, and they turned out to be muslims they cried even harder. When Theo van Gogh was killed here in Amsterdam, they have been crying WHY AGAIN it was an extreme-muslim, and how that would effect them.
It seems they're crying more about how these evets will affect them than they are crying about the tragedy of the events. Your words and not mine.
Brenda Brenda:
They don't like it! Geesh, they are humans, Bart.
When they unequivocly denounce the terrorists and their acts of terror instead of wringing their hands over how they will be treated in the aftermath of such events I'll be far more welcoming to them.
And you say they are human.
I ask then, who are these people?
Are they human to you?
Blue_Nose @ Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:55 am
Brenda Brenda:
I have been discussing this issues with them, who or even what do you think I am? Do you really think I yell something out of the blue? They have been crying in my arms when 9-11 happened, and when it turned out to be muslims they cried even harder. When Theo van Gogh was killed here in Amsterdam, they have been crying WHY AGAIN it was an extreme-muslim, and how that would effect them. (meaning the bias towards the muslim society).
I too had neighbours that were worried about the effects of 9/11 - they'd have to call their son who was away in the city for school every day to make sure he hadn't been beaten up in the street because people like Bart have tried to make it an issue with all of Islam, which therefore translates to an issue anyone who looks Middle Eastern.
That Bart sits at his computer trying to convince people that our good, honest friends are in fact hateful, conspiring zealots is disgusting.
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